"Limp home" system idea

[KarenRei]

Way too late in the game for something like this on the Typ-1, but I was just thinking -- why does there need to be such a stark distinction between an EV and a PHEV? Couldn't one design an EV that has an extremely small "emergency" generator that will allow the vehicle to "limp" home in the case it runs out of battery power? Not that I think that running out of electricity is a big problem when you can just plug into a regular household socket, but nonetheless, it might give people some extra assurance.

The idea: a small, self-contained 1kW (or less) microturbine with a half gallon of fuel, onboard at all times, that *never* activates in normal operation. With a full tank, a microturbine like these may weigh in at ~10 pounds (3 pounds of gas plus a few pounds for the turbine, a couple for the generator, etc):

http://usamt.com/Mel/comm/comm_products.html

(These are designed for drones and sailplanes and the like, but I'm sure you could hook up a tiny DC generator to it with minimal extra weight). With something that light, you could afford to haul it around at all times. I haven't done the math as to how much electricity you could get out of something like this, but you don't need much to "limp" home at low speeds in an EV like an Aptera. At 55mph, the Typ-1h is to go 60-70 miles on a half gallon. At low speeds, you should make it even further on that much fuel.

Thoughts?

[3-4-me]

I need a couple of those to "energize" the exhaust ports on each side of the license plate:D

Seriously, I'm not quite sure how a small turbine would run a generator. How do you exhaust the jet "flame"?
How do you couple them together? What RPM does it produce, and what does the gen. require?
I would think a 1 or 2kw Honda(or the like) could do what your talking about.
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gensup.asp
A bit heavier than you're talking, but not crazy.(29lbs)
It would be interesting to see how much range you could get off of one.

[futura]

KarenRei, you read my mind (almost). Instead of the turbine thing I was thinking of an emergency kit of 6 of those 36V DeWalt "Nano" LiFePO batteries that could plug into some interface box. Those should be good for about 0.5 kWh which hopefully would allow you to limp home 4-8 miles. They take up about as much space as the Honda EU100 generator and have the added advantage of no gas (just electrons) sloshing around the back. Costs about $750 which is on par with the Honda I think.
Cheers.

[3-4-me]

I can't wait to see all the ideas and mods that people come up with after these vehicles are produced.
It should be very interesting. Ingenuity never ceases to amaze me.

[LQUAN]

As an experience giant scale RC aircraft hobbyist, those mircroturbines run on kerosene and they need propane or butane to start them. They are karosene guzzlers. A 13lbs thruster can gulp up to 8oz/min. I don't think you can find anything under 13lbs of thrust. No twin turbine RC jet aircraft (2x13lbs thrust) I know weight under 25lbs and no single turbine jet weight under 20lbs. They are high maintenance little devils. Nominal turbine speed is 80,000rpm - those bearings need constant replacement! They need service every 25 hours at the cost $250 each. You are better off with small gasoline engine generator.

I like futura's idea of a plug-in-emergency battery that let you limp up to 5 miles or so.

[KarenRei]

As an experience giant scale RC aircraft hobbyist, those mircroturbines run on kerosene and they need propane or butane to start them.

It doesn't matter how fast they guzzle fuel -- only their efficiency. Unfortunately, from that site, I can't tell how many kW of output there is -- they give RPM and force, but power is force times velocity.

No twin turbine RC jet aircraft (2x13lbs thrust) I know weight under 25lbs and no single turbine jet weight under 20lbs.

The link I provided sells microturbines as light as 3lbs.

They are high maintenance little devils.

Hence the use only as a limp-home system, not for regular use.

Nominal turbine speed is 80,000rpm

Actually, some on this page were over 150,000rpm :)

I found the page after seeing a sailplane powered by two of the turbines from this company. Two of the five pound turbines were able to launch the plane in calm conditions; now that's impressive!

They need service every 25 hours at the cost $250 each. You are better off with small gasoline engine generator.

So after the *25th time* you strand yourself, you have to service it ;) I.e., probably never.

I like futura's idea of a plug-in-emergency battery that let you limp up to 5 miles or so.

My take on batteries is, if you're going to have extra batteries, have extra batteries. No need for it to be a separate system. The problem is that currently, batteries are heavy. If you carry around your "limp home" system all the time, it needs to be light or it's going to hurt your normal range and environmental footprint. Which is why I focused on microturbines.

Really, my only concern with microturbines is the price. They're pretty expensive. It may be more worth it, for a limp-home system, to take the weight hit and just carry as small of a piston-driven generator as you can find.

[Dolphyn]

I like the idea, but gasoline can deteriorate (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/060825.html) so the emergency system might fail to work when you need it most. Maybe they'll add pedals or a wind-up system (http://www.windupkey.com/) for us to use in an emergency. ;)

Hmm, towing an Aptera could get rather interesting.

[LQUAN]

I was just talking about thrust force in pound not the weight of turbine unit. Turbine unit weight ranges between 3 to 5 lbs. The total jet plane weight is 25lbs lightest for twin turbine and 20lbs lightest for single turbine. I am not wealthy enough to fly RC jet planes - just watch other people fly while droolings.:D Large turbine unit speed range is lower. The smaller they get, the faster they have to spin. A typical 13lbs thruster has a max 120,000rpm. :)

[LQUAN]

I like the idea, but gasoline can deteriorate (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/060825.html) so the emergency system might fail to work when you need it most. Maybe they'll add pedals or a wind-up system (http://www.windupkey.com/) for us to use in an emergency. ;)

Hmm, towing an Aptera could get rather interesting.

You are right about gasoline deteriorate after a while even sitting in your well sealed car gas tank. This has been my main concern for not getting the Type1h. My typical daily commuting range is under 30 miles. If my gas is sitting in the tank unused for 1 month, it would have a hard time starting the engine. I know this for a fact because my gasoline powered RC aircraft won't start if the gas is more than 3 weeks old. Those little engines required 91 octane or higher gasoline. With high gas price, 91 octane gas tends to sit longer in the underground storage at the station; therefore, vaporized its potency more than the cheaper and more popular 87 octane. This is the reason why some people experience better performance with lower octane gas sometimes. My car can barely go up the hill in 2 months old gas!

[AT802]

If a 50 mile (all electric) range can be expected from a type1h , fuel stabilizer may be in order. you may have to drain the fuel from the tank and run it in some other engine , ie. your lawn mower , if it sits more than three mos.

[Aptera #1159]

Maybe a back up batt?

[Dubito]

Will our modern new car not have an accurate “distance remaining” page within the on-board computer that incorporates your environment and driving style?

As long as you’re not on the side of the road and carry a long extension cord, I’m betting you can finagle some juice from a restaurant or store for a few dollars or some conversation, at least while apteras are novel.

Or… will we be able to tap into some electrons donated by a passing fellow apterian who stops to give a boost?

[Aptera #1159]

They have plug in places for ev's in some parking garages in so cal. In Old town pas they have a lot. Right next to idea lab.

[Aptera #1159]

We always have the solar cell... as a last resort. Maybe we could get 2-3 miles off it after 8 hours. lol

[KarenRei]

If it's just for emergencies, who says it has to be gasoline in the tank. :) Or it could be flex fuel; turbines are usually good about that.

[Ahweh]

I am new to this forum but have had many ideas and some designs on how to extend the range of an Electric Vehicle. My designs would also easily supply pollution free power in the case of battery depletion in the middle of nowhere.
I have already sent in a couple of emails to Aptera but have yet to hear back from them. I also hope Aptera is also going to use the A-123 batteries because they are promising.

George

[pk-sd]

I am new to this forum but have had many ideas and some designs on how to extend the range of an Electric Vehicle. My designs would also easily supply pollution free power in the case of battery depletion in the middle of nowhere.
........

Wanna give us a hint on what those ideas are ?

[gg222]

What about making it like one of those lights that you just shake up and they light up!!! :p

[Ahweh]

Wanna give us a hint on what those ideas are ?

I wish I could but I have yet to patent them due to lack of funds.

George

[KarenRei]

Not to denigrate your ideas, which may be very good.

But. Please pardon me for quoting Michael Abrash (a famous programming guru). It's about ideas in programming, but apply it to a more genera situatin, if you will:

"Our world is changing, and I'm concerned. By way of explanation, three anecdotes.

Anecdote the first: In one of his books, Frank Herbert, author of Dune, told me how he had once been approached by a friend who claimed he (the friend) had a killer idea for a SF story, and offered to tell it to Herbert. In return, Herbert had to agree that if he used the idea in a story, he'd split the money from the story with this fellow. Herbert's response was that ideas were a dime a dozen; he had more story ideas than he could ever write in a lifetime. The hard part was the writing, not the ideas.

Anecdote the second: I've been programming micros for 15 years, and been writing about them for more than a decade and, until about a year ago, I had never-not once!- had anyone offer to sell me a technical idea. In the last year, it's happened multiple times, generally via unsolicited email along the lines of Herbert's tale.

This trend toward selling ideas is one symptom of an attitude that I've noticed more and more among programmers over the past few years-an attitude of which software patents are the most obvious manifestation-a desire to think something up without breaking a sweat, then let someone else's hard work make you money. Its an attitude that says, "I'm so smart that my ideas alone set me apart." Sorry, it doesn't work that way in the real world. Ideas are a dime a dozen in programming, too; I have a lifetime's worth of article and software ideas written neatly in a notebook, and I know several truly original thinkers who have far more yet. Folks, it's not the ideas; it's design, implementation, and especially hard work that make the difference.

Virtually every idea I've encountered in 3-D graphics was invented decades ago. You think you have a clever graphics idea? Sutherland, Sproull, Schumacker, Catmull, Smith, Blinn, Glassner, Kajiya, Heckbert, or Teller probably thought of your idea years ago. (I'm serious-spend a few weeks reading through the literature on 3-D graphics, and you'll be amazed at what's already been invented and published.) If they thought it was important enough, they wrote a paper about it, or tried to commercialize it, but what they didn't do was try to charge people for the idea itself.

A closely related point is the astonishing lack of gratitude some programmers show for the hard work and sense of community that went into building the knowledge base with which they work. How about this? Anyone who thinks they have a unique idea that they want to "own" and milk for money can do so-but first they have to track down and appropriately compensate all the people who made possible the compilers, algorithms, programming courses, books, hardware, and so forth that put them in a position to have their brainstorm.

Put that way, it sounds like a silly idea, but the idea behind software patents is precisely that eventually everyone will own parts of our communal knowledge base, and that programming will become in large part a process of properly identifying and compensating each and every owner of the techniques you use. All I can say is that if we do go down that path, I guarantee that it will be a poorer profession for all of us - except the patent attorneys, I guess.

Anecdote the third: A while back, I had the good fortune to have lunch down by Seattle's waterfront with Neal Stephenson, the author of Snow Crash and The Diamond Age (one of the best SF books I've come across in a long time). As he talked about the nature of networked technology and what he hoped to see emerge, he mentioned that a couple of blocks down the street was the pawn shop where Jimi Hendrix bought his first guitar. His point was that if a cheap guitar hadn't been available, Hendrix's unique talent would never have emerged. Similarly, he views the networking of society as a way to get affordable creative tools to many people, so as much talent as possible can be unearthed and developed.

Extend that to programming. The way it should work is that a steady flow of information circulates, so that everyone can do the best work they're capable of. The idea is that I don't gain by intellectually impoverishing you, and vice-versa; as we both compete and (intentionally or otherwise) share ideas, both our products become better, so the market grows larger and everyone benefits.

That's the way things have worked with programming for a long time. So far as I can see it has worked remarkably well, and the recent signs of change make me concerned about the future of our profession."

[KarenRei]

Or, perhaps if Abrash isn't your cup of bytes, perhaps you'd prefer Thomas Alva Edison:

"Genius is one per cent inspiration, ninety-nine per cent perspiration."

As one person put it, the lazy inventor is useless to society. A hard working person with one single good idea is worth infinitely more to the world as a whole than an unmotivated dreamer.

Let me relate one last tidbit from my own brief stint in writing. You find all sorts of amateur writers all over the place worried that "someone is going to steal their ideas". They file a copyright on their work (ignoring the Berne convention, and making themselves look dumb when they submit to agents and publishers). They hesitate to reveal any of their work to peers, denying themselves the ability to get feedback and criticism. And it's all ridiculous. There are a hundred times more people who want to make a career out of writing than actually manage to pull it off. There is absolutely no shortage of quality writing out there, let alone that of some novice who thinks the world is out to steal their "inspired" prose. Nor are there publishers who would rather risk jail to routinely, repeatedly rip off amateurs rather than make a career out of getting repeat publications from them if they're actually any good, all to avoid paying the author their pitifully small royalties. And yet people worry, worry, and worry some more, because of one thing: ego. They're convinced they're the best thing since sliced bread. And the more strongly they believe this, the more strongly you can be sure of one thing:

They're not.

[G-Jet]

Well put KarenRei. Neal Stephenson, wow. Snow crash is one of my all time faves, and Diamond Age is still rattling around in my head.

Your understanding of the idea and the implementation is right on.

Refreshing.

G

[Ahweh]

Thank you for your wisdom!

I have hundreds if not thousands of hours of sweat equity in taking my ideas to designs which work at their basic levels. My next step is to bring my designs to their fullest potential so they don't end up sitting on the shelf forever. To bring these designs to their fullest they need to be put to good use. I believe that the Aptera is perfectly suited for what I have come up with. I don't know how much you like working your but off on something and then not getting paid for your time. I think that if people did not mind working and not getting paid then money would not exist at all. But I know that is not the case in our society today because even ministers get paid for their work and time in religious institutions. Please understand I donate lots of time and energy to those who are in need of one thing or another.

In another light I inherited the idea, design, enthusiasm and never ending drive from my father and grandfather. Who came up with truly great things but never got so much as an honorable mention because they told the wrong person about their designs. Then those people took my families designs and made who knows how much from them. I experienced my fathers prototypes first hand then a few years later I saw the same thing being sold in the stores. When I asked my dad what happened. As he was saying that he showed his prototype to the wrong person who took it for himself I could see the hurt in his eyes. He spent countless hours on his designs and prototypes then for someone else to steal his work hurts I know because I saw it in my fathers eyes. My father was also a very giving man he died helping a friend who was in need.

I would love it if our society were not driven by money and you got what you need when you need it just by asking without any monetary exchange. Then I would be happy to share my designs with the world that was in need. But we all know that if you did not get paid for your days work, you would not go to work. That is all I want to get paid for all my hard work so I can buy the things my family needs. Which is the same thing as going to a daily job for a decent wage so I can buy the things My family needs which I still do.

George

[3-4-me]

You can't really fault a man for not wanting to post his ideas on a forum for who knows who to see.

When Edison said:
"Genius is one per cent inspiration, ninety-nine per cent perspiration."
I don't think he meant, share all you're ideas with everyone.:rolleyes:

George, you could document your ideas, date it, and mail it to yourself to prove you had the concept.
It probably wouldn't hold up like a patent, but it's better than nothing.

[futura]

This "intellectual property" (IP) topic is huge so I will just add a few thoughts from my perspective.
I generally agree with KarenRei's comments but we should acknowledge distinctions between copyright (software almost always goes here) and patents ( hardware implementation like batteries).
I think if Ahweh didn't convey such a "victim" tone in his post he would find me more receptive to his concern. Ahweh, you can file a patent quite cheaply ($150 per page). With the internet, searches are very easy. A simple drawing program on your computer and a word processing program will work fine. You can't patent an "idea" but rather must describe an implementation that has some use and a novel solution beyond what any normal practitioner of the field would apply.
I've been through the process, I have less than 10 patents but a couple have actually netted me small $$. In my work, a lot of patents are filed just to protect us from lawsuits. Don't even get me started on the stupid IP claims in the software field, it's a very stifling environment and I think KarenRei's excerpts go the the heart of the problem.

The battery tech that we need for our Apteras is feeling this tension right now. John Goodenough at the University of Texas (UT) patented the LiFePO4 technology years ago. A123 improved it and did the 99% perspiration job of cost effective mass production. The companies that UT licensed the (sadly) exclusive patent rights to have been very slow at taking this technology to the level where A123 and others have taken it. A123 is being sued by UT, lawyers make money, we wait for better batteries, CO2 and oil companies bloom. It's a tricky issue.

I think Edison's "1% inspiration, 99% perspiration " quote is very revealing of his type of "genius". He was quite the trial and error sort of inventor almost to the point of using a "million monkeys" approach with young students in his Menlo Park lab. Tesla (not the electric car company), an employee of his, seems to have been the opposite sort of "genius" with brilliant ideas flowing in almost completely implemented form before turning a wrench.
It's quite clear Tesla could have used a little more IP protection just to keep from getting screwed by Edison. But, like a great writer or any artist, Tesla had to invent as much as he had to breathe. Perhaps Ahweh is this sort of inventor.

Now, back to the thread topic. When I proposed my "limp home" solution of the 6-pack of DeWalt batteries, KarenRei's comment was My take on batteries is, if you're going to have extra batteries, have extra batteries. No need for it to be a separate system

The idea really was this: Have a segmented battery scheme where 5% is the "quick charge" type like Altairnano's or even A123 (15 min charge!).
Configure the power system so if you're out of useable electrons you can plug into a regular outlet and get 2 kW for say, 15 mins. That should get you home. If not repeat the cycle after 5-10 miles (drive slower). Perhaps this is unnecessary because Aptera will use a battery that can be quick-charged but they limit the rate so it's household friendly. Not knowing the battery scheme I can't really say.

Cheers.

p.s. Here's the TZero EV method of extending range, tow a generator! (Don't think Aptera wants to offer this, but trailing a little Aptera shaped object would look ridiculously cute).

34
More on TZero here:
http://www.acpropulsion.com/vehicles/images/red%20long%20ranger%203_jpg.jpg
http://www.acpropulsion.com/vehicles/gallery.htm

[KarenRei]

I generally agree with KarenRei's comments but we should acknowledge distinctions between copyright (software almost always goes here) and patents ( hardware implementation like batteries).

Actually, the discussion of software was with software patents, not copyrights. People trying to patent ideas rather than implementations.

There certainly is a legitimate point to the patent system, and it'd be hard to claim that we'd be better off without it. But the idea that the "little guy" with no implementation and just a "brilliant idea" is going to be ripped off by big unscrupulous companies who are out to steal your ideas that secretly monitor forums looking for ideas because they're too dumb to think of any on their own is just paranoia. The patent system is designed to protect people who actually have a physical product -- those who have done both the inspiration *and* perspiration steps. Those who try to just come up with ideas, patent them, and then sell them (or worse, sit on them and then sue), with no intention of making them themselves are known by names such as "patent troll" and are generally not looked at fondly.

Tesla (not the electric car company), an employee of his, seems to have been the opposite sort of "genius" with brilliant ideas flowing in almost completely implemented form before turning a wrench.

Tesla made a lot of great inventions in his early and middle life, but his late life was full of ridiculous, often impossible claims and paranoia as he sank into OCD and senility (read about his obsession he developed with the number three, for example). He lost his money from the expiry of his AC patents, then lost the money from his European patents during WWI. He squandered his fortune from winning the "War of the Currents" on things like the Wardenclyffe Tower where, after spending a tremendous amount of money, tried to change its plans to provide "free energy" to everyone, which made his investors balk. He started building death rays, trying to talk with aliens, trying to invent anti-gravity, teleporters, time travel, and all sorts of things. His debt in his later life was through no fault but his own.

Perhaps this is unnecessary because Aptera will use a battery that can be quick-charged but they limit the rate so it's household friendly

They've stated they're using lithium phosphate, and essentially all lithium phosphate batteries are capable of some degree of quick charge. What Aptera hasn't announced, however, is a charger that will take high power currents. I certainly hope they do include one.

[Dolphyn]

Configure the power system so if you're out of useable electrons you can plug into a regular outlet and get 2 kW for say, 15 mins. That should get you home. If not repeat the cycle after 5-10 miles (drive slower).That's fine if there's an outlet available. Why not include 12-V DC charging ability, so that in a dire emergency we could get a jump-start from a regular car?

Of course, I haven't made any attempt to determine how long it would take to get any useful charge at 12 V. Maybe the Aptera's solar panels will do the job just as fast. :)

[wpatters]

Discussion of the EV1 brought up another idea.

Use the the all electric vehicle in town. That way, you don't have to carry around the engine/generator/gas tank.

For long trips, an engine/generator/gas tank could be towed in a small airodynamic trailer. The trailer would spend most of its time parked. The advantage would be that the Aptera e type could make cross country trips.

A trailer receptor would also allow us to carry our bikes on the rear of the aptera. I can hear the aero engineers spinning now/ ha ha.

Bill

[3-4-me]

p.s. Here's the TZero EV method of extending range, tow a generator! (Don't think Aptera wants to offer this, but trailing a little Aptera shaped object would look ridiculously cute).
Hey, you stole my idea:mad: j/k
I love the idea of a small teardrop shaped trailer, using the same axle setup as the front end of the Aptera.(kinda mini-me style:D )
Could be a unit that you rented for a longer trip. Wait, I better call my patent attorney.:p

[3-4-me]

Discussion of the EV1 brought up another idea.

Use the the all electric vehicle in town. That way, you don't have to carry around the engine/generator/gas tank.

For long trips, an engine/generator/gas tank could be towed in a small airodynamic trailer. The trailer would spend most of its time parked. The advantage would be that the Aptera e type could make cross country trips.

A trailer receptor would also allow us to carry our bikes on the rear of the aptera. I can hear the aero engineers spinning now/ ha ha.
Bill
I had this idea too, put the reciever where the license plate is.
Mount the plate on a receiver bracket.
Your bike rack goes in place, and the plate mounts on to the bike rack.(plug and play)
Make the bikes mount in-line with the car.

[KarenRei]

AFAIK, the Aptera doesn't have the power to tow. Not to mention that if what was being towed isn't providing power, it would be a big range hit anyways.

Range-extending trailers aren't new; I've seen pics of one for a Rav4EV.

But yes, an Aptera-shaped range extender trailer being towed by an Aptera would be completely adorable ;) "RUN! They're Reproducing!!!"

[qpham63]

Way too late in the game for something like this on the Typ-1, but I was just thinking -- why does there need to be such a stark distinction between an EV and a PHEV? Couldn't one design an EV that has an extremely small "emergency" generator that will allow the vehicle to "limp" home in the case it runs out of battery power? Not that I think that running out of electricity is a big problem when you can just plug into a regular household socket, but nonetheless, it might give people some extra assurance.

The idea: a small, self-contained 1kW (or less) microturbine with a half gallon of fuel, onboard at all times, that *never* activates in normal operation. With a full tank, a microturbine like these may weigh in at ~10 pounds (3 pounds of gas plus a few pounds for the turbine, a couple for the generator, etc):

http://usamt.com/Mel/comm/comm_products.html

(These are designed for drones and sailplanes and the like, but I'm sure you could hook up a tiny DC generator to it with minimal extra weight). With something that light, you could afford to haul it around at all times. I haven't done the math as to how much electricity you could get out of something like this, but you don't need much to "limp" home at low speeds in an EV like an Aptera. At 55mph, the Typ-1h is to go 60-70 miles on a half gallon. At low speeds, you should make it even further on that much fuel.

Thoughts?

I am not quite up on the newer battery chemistry as I skipped the Nickel stuff all together and went right to Li-ION from Lead Acid.

I have only one year and about 40 cycles on Li-ION and they were never more than 30% discharged.

For SLAs, the deeper the discharge, the less number of cycles you will get out of the battery pack and the quicker you will lose capacity (AHs).

Is this the same for Li-ION? Will you see this in a drop in voltage? In the older 50CC Honda Scooters there is the normal and there is the reserve valve position. The normal position does not allow complete emptying of the gas tank. The reserve does. May be the control can be set to turn off at say 40% capacity and then you have to manually reset to the reserve knowing that in about 20% of the capacity you need to stop at a Starbucks and enjoy a long coffee break while you tap into an outdoor out let or get somewhere that you can plug in.

This would not increase "range" but it give you that "bingo fuel" signal that you have got to do something towards rejuicing the pack.

Sort of the same thing with ICE. I have relied wholely on the #miles left to empty and fuel up when there is about 30 miles of driving left. Most car does that with a warning light. Try to reduce my visits to fuel pump and a lighter vehicle is a more efficient vehicle.

We all normally know how much we are about to put on our vehicles each day we take them out right?

So once in a while, when this happens, and you go to push on the pedal and the pack said I am spent, call the significant other and have him/her show up with a generator and a picnic basket. I am sure there will be a few people who will stop to talk to you while you wait to get enough juice to get home.

I have driven probably a million miles or pretty darn close to it. I have run out of gas three times and broken down 5-6 times counting also counting flats.

Why spend money for something that you will seldom use? I have a sun roof on my MDX. I probably have used it less than 10 times in the last 7-1/2 years. It was not an option, it was a standard feature for the touring model or I would have opted out on that feature. Don't have one on the CTS and never missed it.

As for the H, put only enough gas in to extend your range somewhat. Using up a quart is OK, right? Fuel up only when you are taking a long drive and if that is all the time, then you would not suffer deteriorated gas.

Set up a pump system so that you can empty into your regular car to mix with new gas and pump back a little like 1 quart or so may be once a month and that should work. I saw the set up on the tanks for our old 1979 Econoline with dual fuel tank totaling 35 gallons. It would hurt to fill up now. Just some valves and 12 v pumps. You could visit an RV store and get what you need quickly enough. Should make filling up your lawn mower/generator etc safer and easier as well.

Make sure you ground well:D

[qpham63]

Way too late in the game for something like this on the Typ-1, but I was just thinking -- why does there need to be such a stark distinction between an EV and a PHEV? Couldn't one design an EV that has an extremely small "emergency" generator that will allow the vehicle to "limp" home in the case it runs out of battery power? Not that I think that running out of electricity is a big problem when you can just plug into a regular household socket, but nonetheless, it might give people some extra assurance.

The idea: a small, self-contained 1kW (or less) microturbine with a half gallon of fuel, onboard at all times, that *never* activates in normal operation. With a full tank, a microturbine like these may weigh in at ~10 pounds (3 pounds of gas plus a few pounds for the turbine, a couple for the generator, etc):

http://usamt.com/Mel/comm/comm_products.html

(These are designed for drones and sailplanes and the like, but I'm sure you could hook up a tiny DC generator to it with minimal extra weight). With something that light, you could afford to haul it around at all times. I haven't done the math as to how much electricity you could get out of something like this, but you don't need much to "limp" home at low speeds in an EV like an Aptera. At 55mph, the Typ-1h is to go 60-70 miles on a half gallon. At low speeds, you should make it even further on that much fuel.

Thoughts?

I am not quite up on the newer battery chemistry as I skipped the Nickel stuff all together and went right to Li-ION from Lead Acid.

I have only one year and about 40 cycles on Li-ION and they were never more than 30% discharged.

For SLAs, the deeper the discharge, the less number of cycles you will get out of the battery pack and the quicker you will lose capacity (AHs).

Is this the same for Li-ION? Will you see this in a drop in voltage? In the older 50CC Honda Scooters there is the normal and there is the reserve valve position. The normal position does not allow complete emptying of the gas tank. The reserve does. May be the control can be set to turn off at say 40% capacity and then you have to manually reset to the reserve knowing that in about 20% of the capacity you need to stop at a Starbucks and enjoy a long coffee break while you tap into an outdoor out let or get somewhere that you can plug in.

This would not increase "range" but it give you that "bingo fuel" signal that you have got to do something towards rejuicing the pack.

Sort of the same thing with ICE. I have relied wholely on the #miles left to empty and fuel up when there is about 30 miles of driving left. Most car does that with a warning light. Try to reduce my visits to fuel pump and a lighter vehicle is a more efficient vehicle.

We all normally know how much we are about to put on our vehicles each day we take them out right?

So once in a while, when this happens, and you go to push on the pedal and the pack said I am spent, call the significant other and have him/her show up with a generator and a picnic basket. I am sure there will be a few people who will stop to talk to you while you wait to get enough juice to get home.

I have driven probably a million miles or pretty darn close to it. I have run out of gas three times and broken down 5-6 times counting also counting flats.

Why spend money for something that you will seldom use? I have a sun roof on my MDX. I probably have used it less than 10 times in the last 7-1/2 years. It was not an option, it was a standard feature for the touring model or I would have opted out on that feature. Don't have one on the CTS and never missed it.

As for the H, put only enough gas in to extend your range somewhat. Using up a quart is OK, right? Fuel up only when you are taking a long drive and if that is all the time, then you would not suffer deteriorated gas.

Set up a pump system so that you can empty into your regular car to mix with new gas and pump back a little like 1 quart or so may be once a month and that should work. I saw the set up on the tanks for our old 1979 Econoline with dual fuel tank totaling 35 gallons. It would hurt to fill up now. Just some valves and 12 v pumps. You could visit an RV store and get what you need quickly enough. Should make filling up your lawn mower/generator etc safer and easier as well.

Make sure you ground well:D

[3-4-me]

Reserve on the pack may not be a bad idea, but I think a bit unneccesary. Motorcycles have a reserve because, they have no fuel guage. They also only carry a couple of gal. of gas.
I'm sure Aptera will have a "fuel" guage.
A DTE readout would be nice, and give you the heads up to get to an outlet.

[qpham63]

AFAIK, the Aptera doesn't have the power to tow. Not to mention that if what was being towed isn't providing power, it would be a big range hit anyways.

Range-extending trailers aren't new; I've seen pics of one for a Rav4EV.

But yes, an Aptera-shaped range extender trailer being towed by an Aptera would be completely adorable ;) "RUN! They're Reproducing!!!"

LOL Alright, who is good at Photoshop? It would be an interesting picture.

Please post if you do it though so we can perhaps use it for our "wall paper":D