Re-locate the DRL's to the wheel covers

[oldpecan]

I'm new here; sorry if this is a topic that is already stale.

If it is against the law to put Daytime Running Lights away from the main part of thevehicle, then work to change the law.

Laws are supposed to increase our safety, not decrease it [!]

It would make the Aptera safer. IMHO

Like if you're second in line to make a left. You'd be more visible.

I do apologize if this has already been hashed out. Feel free to delete in that case.

Best not to be hit in the first place, I always say.

[3-4-me]

I really liked the idea at first. It could even mean the light would track through a turn.
The only problem I see is:
Since it's mounted on a suspension component, the lights may have a lot of vibration.
It could be distracting at night with the light beam bouncing on the road.

[Chupacabra]

If there's no law against having them on the wheel covers, I don't see why they couldn't put them on the body and wheel cover for visibility. There are so few vehicles on the road that have wheels which stick out like that, people won't be used to it. The extra visibility might be nice

[LeeW]

I have ridden bicycles with no suspension atall and narrow 120psi tires and HID headlights. I have not noticed any issues with the light beam bounding around due to the vibration.

[oldpecan]

Gee, why didn't I just include "headlights on the wheel covers" along with "DRL's on the wheel covers" in my 1st post? Might as well put the headlights out there, too. More of a stereo effect!

Before I read LeeW's post, I was gonna say, "Don't the daytime headlights on motorcycles in California pulse rapidly in brightness to distinguish the motorcycles from cars with DRL's?" if so, then if an un-suspended light bouncing around would just have that pulsing effect to some degree.

But then LeeW says any vibration might not be a big deal anyway.*

Maybe in some instances you wouldn't want your lights pointing the direction your steering towards? (Can't think of any)

Re-stating one of life's persistent questions from post #1:

Would putting the lights on the wheel covers somehow make other drivers on the road less safe?

If any law exists that doesn't make sense, and causes smaller vehicles to be less safe ... well, I'd really hope a law like that could and would be changed.

Well, I suppose I should be researching the legality instead of wondering aloud. Off to google-ville now!

[anyway. somehow I have in my mind that there's a law probably intended to keep people from using imperfect, bolt-on, after-market lights that might shine all over the place and blind drivers,

and that that law might hang up the use even of well-designed, well-aimed DRL's? like maybe DRL's on the front of exterior rear-view mirrors] on "non=aptera" cars]

* and those 120 psi road bicycle tires are rock hard!

[3-4-me]

I had another look at the night time video walk around.
The "wheel pants" have marker lights front and rear.
They double as turn signals as well. It's hard to see them blink in the video, but it's around 1:37
I like what they have designed, it looks good, and seems practical.
I'm not sure if the markers stay on all the time, but probably not for energy savings.

_F3S__SCJ50

[oldpecan]

thanks for the link to the video --- I didn't even see that there were lights out there at all in the other (daytime) pix.

here's an interesting if imperfect article on "Driving with your lights on" and how much energy it takes:

http://mb-soft.com/public/headlite.html

beware, the author is a physicist/Corvette driver. He sort of doesn't like the idea of DRL's in the first place.

Another quibble with him: He thinks having a bright red car makes him safer:

iirc Red is the worst of the colors for appearing gray when the light is dim, like a cloudy day, pre-storm, dawn, or dusk. IOW, of all the colors, red loses its chroma first as the big dimmer switch in the sky is turned down.

[KarenRei]

Well, let's see.. Wikipedia says HID lamps use 35-38W, so let's go with 35W. At 55mph, Aptera uses ~80Wh/mi. So, headlights would lower your range from 120mi to ~80mi. At top speed (~85mph), Aptera uses ~140Wh/mi and goes 70 miles. At those speeds, headlights would lower your range from 70mi to ~55mi. Yep, headlights would be a pretty big hit.

I doubt you'd even notice the impact of LED running lights, however -- much lower lumen requirements *and* more efficient. Hmm -- I wonder how much power LED headlamps draw? I'll do a quick google search. This:

http://www.partstrain.com/blog/?p=285

...says Hella is planning to make 10W LED headlights, so let's go with that.They're apparently going to be supplying them to GM this year:

http://news.thomasnet.com/companystory/811853

So, let's go with 10W. That'd make the 55mph range drop from 120mi to ~110mi, and the 85mph range drop from 70mi to ~65mi. Not bad, really.

So, let's hope they use LED headlights :)

Next up: how little power can you use on a stereo system and still get good sound? Inquiring minds want to know! (at least they won't need extra power for the player; the streetdeck system that runs at all times, and which one would assume is included in that 80W/mi draw, should handle that). Also, windshield wipers. And cooling & heating. The last two would be especially hard, as we don't know whether they plan to recover waste heat from the motor, we don't know whether in-seat heating-cooling will be standard (and how much of an advantage does that give you?), and so forth. Also, the vent fan is powered by solar during bright days.

Stereo: ??? I know you don't want to measure by peak wattage because that only applies in certain situations. But I'm not sure how good of sound you could get with as low wattage as possible. Any audiophiles here know more on this subject?

Wipers: Found wiper motors ranging from 20 to 75 watts; 35 or so was common. Does one motor drive both blades or are there two? Either, Aptera could probably save power and use a smaller motor by using a single blade wiper system, no? Normally doesn't give as complete coverage, but should be good enough, especially give in the windshield shape. Wonder if you could also save power by reducing the amount of pressure of the blade against the glass without compromising general-case functionality... 35W would be a big range hit (see HID headlights, above), and even 20W would be noticable.

[Dilekz]

About the sound system.. I know some dude who has USB speakers.

The energy comes from the usb.. and for the people who know about electronics. USB = 5v 500mA max....

And there is alot sound coming from it.

But also efficiency in sound systems has been getting better.
A example, 10 years ago you had these large amplifiers with radiators at the back to lose heat ( this is deu inefficience...)

Nowdays you have these smaller amplifiers who give the same ammount of sound. But without the loss of heat. And saving energy. And the systems are getting smaller.

And for the people with there big stereo amplifiers saying 4000 watt :D
Want to bet it isn't RMS ? hahaha
That's so funny.. when friends of mine talked about there stereo in there car that was 4000 watts.. :) it's peak power. Not TRUE power.

I would like to have a decent stereo in it. Maybe with some tweaters and low speakers. But it doesn't need to get THAT loud.. :)


I think that the streetdeck thing.. is a big luxery.. :) A bit to big. And the camera's are great !!

[KarenRei]

Oh, hey, I never thought of USB speakers -- good way to constrain the problem, Dilekz :) That's great, then -- the speakers average draw should be able to be kept down to just a couple watts.

Assuming they can keep wiper consumption down, that really just leaves heating and cooling, which I think would be hard to constrain without more info.

[Chupacabra]

You know, in traditional cars electricity has always been considered "Free". That is to say, it is generated by the alternator. I would wager that energy efficient products have never really been a huge thought for manufacturers.

Thus, when Aptera takes things from "off the shelf", they may be less energy efficient then they *could* be. Granted, I'm sure they're aware of this fact and are trying to get the best blend of energy efficiency and function.

That said, I'm sure once EVs become more popular manufacturers may start taking energy efficiency into consideration and building better products that require less...

[Dolphyn]

Well, let's see.. Wikipedia says HID lamps use 35-38W, so let's go with 35W. At 55mph, Aptera uses ~80Wh/mi. So, headlights would lower your range from 120mi to ~80mi. At top speed (~85mph), Aptera uses ~140Wh/mi and goes 70 miles. At those speeds, headlights would lower your range from 70mi to ~55mi. Yep, headlights would be a pretty big hit.
Using your numbers, I calculate

(80 watt-hours/mile) * (55 miles/hour) = 4400 watts

(140 watt-hours/mile) * (85 miles/hour) = 11900 watts

So the power consumption of a 35-watt lamp ought to be rather insignificant in comparison.

Am I missing something?

[KarenRei]

Doh, you're right. I forgot to multiply by how many miles you go per hour!

Never mind -- none of these drains are serious issues.

[3-4-me]

Wipers typically use one motor with a linkage to operate the arms.

[c0mp13x]

Wipers typically use one motor with a linkage to operate the arms.
Makes sense, then there are no sync issues between 2 wipers regardless of load.

;)

[oldpecan]

I remember reading that DRL's are legally supposed to be only iirc 70% of the brightness of headlights. {---edit. now, in searching, I see conflicting statements--}

So, maybe, if headlights can require as little as 10 watts of power (as per KarenRei's link to the Hella site on page 1 of this thread), then perhaps LED Daytlime Running Lights might consume as few as 7 watts?

and if the DRL's were switchable, they'd consume 0 watts on a sunny drive between Barstow and Needles!

http://daytimerunninglights.blogspot.com/2006_11_01_archive.html [new LED tech]

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/Rpts/2004/809-760/pages/Background.htm

[statistics galore. large safety increases for pedestrians and bicyclists interacting with DRL-equipped cars, btw]

[[[OT I was watching my wipers the other day:

Seems like some percentage of the rainwater (25%?) is pushed DOWN and INTO the center, down low on the windshield, where wind pressure moves it jigglingly back up into the driver's field of view, and there the same rainwater has to be dealt with A SECOND TIME, by the other wiper.

Or even the same unwanted rainwater keeps getting [mostly) knocked back down by each wiper

I know that sharper and more knowledgeable people than me have given this some thought!

The only thing I could come up with is:

Take the stern-wheel off of a Mississippi River steamboat! And power it so that the paddles brush the water up and off the windshield! No more dealing twice with the same drop of water! [glad I solved that one] ]]]

On topic again: Love the luxurious huge glass area of the Aptera!

otoh. On The Other Hand: Out on the interstate only a few inches of windshield dimension height (roof to hood) are needed for safe vision. Try it yourself sometime!!! that'll save me a lot of typing! And the point I'm getting at:

air-conditioning load: Maybe Aptera Inc. could build-in a very reflective, and even darker than the pictured Aptera tint, and also insulated pull-down or fold-out shade for that generous, curved glass area.

...because, from my little experiment on the interstate, (yes, where it,s flat terrain), the driver only needs a half a foot of glass-height of windshield.

...just thinking 'bout that Barstow to Needles trip again!

But maybe Aptera's windshield should be totally clear, and then add custom-shaped layers of anti- heat, and anti-light materials to taste. That way you could have maximum direct solar heating in wintertime, gratis.


something tells me I should read up more before I opine.

[LQUAN]

Speaking of windshield wippers...I hope Aptera use single wipper instead of the old fashion dual wippers - this translate to power saving. If they used dual wippers, at least, I hope they do it like the new Honda Civic - both wippers going in the opposite directions at the same time. These methods would be the smart ways to clear water from the windshield. I had thought of the windshield wipping method as the Civic when I was 12. It took over 2 decades for somebody to finally make them.

[Dolphyn]

Speaking of windshield wippers...I hope Aptera use single wipper instead of the old fashion dual wippers - this translate to power saving. If they used dual wippers, at least, I hope they do it like the new Honda Civic - both wippers going in the opposite directions at the same time. These methods would be the smart ways to clear water from the windshield. I had thought of the windshield wipping method as the Civic when I was 12. It took over 2 decades for somebody to finally make them.
I learned to drive in a 1956 Chevy Bel-Air which had the windshield wipers going in the opposite directions at the same time. ;)

[LQUAN]

I learned to drive in a 1956 Chevy Bel-Air which had the windshield wipers going in the opposite directions at the same time. ;)

Oh, my mistake, sorry I wasn't even borned yet.:D

[3-4-me]

I seem to remember a few cars that used opposing wipers, can't remeber which ones now, but I've seen them.
I worked in my Dad's repair garage a couple of years in High school though, so I've seen a couple.;)

[Dolphyn]

What wipers?

http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/02/inventor-uses-n.html

:D