Xenons Anyone?

[appyfan]

Hey guys, I'm a new member and a big fan of the Aptera... I really can't wait 'till it comes out. HOWEVER...

As we all very well know this is a very high tech piece of engineering... Those headlights are just begging for Xenons instead of the standard halogen.

Does anyone know if Aptera will grant us the option of Xenons in place of the standard beams? It really wouldn't be a big deal and I would gladly pay the added cost.

It would only seem natural that a car as advanced as this would at least offer us the idea.

Any thoughts? Thanks guys.

BTW, just as a sidenote... I read somewhere that Aptera is going to be removing the really cool camera's on the sides of the car and in place will be installing traditional side view mirrors. Does anyone know what the deal is with this concept? It would be a real downer if they scrapped the whole side/rear view LCD concept. :(

[MegaAutoBit]

Welcome,

I brought this issue up some time ago; however, at the time it seemed that I was the only person interested in an HID option. I have posted a link below. Regarding the camera system, I don’t believe Aptera has made an official decision, last I read, they were considering the camera system as an option.

http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=56

[GCustom]

I have HIDs now and every time I drive a car with regular halogens, its as if I've gone half blind.

[futura]

Agree completely. Once you've had them it's hard to do without.
Seems like a good fit to an EV since they use much less power than Halogen for the same brightness. I'd definitely pay the extra $ if it was optional.
Cheers.

[Chupacabra]

Where in the world did you hear they were installing mirrors... they would totally mess up the CD airflow if installed on the outside, that sounds like a bad rumor started by someone.

[appyfan]

Yeah i know tell me about it... :( I read about it on some news article.

[LQUAN]

You have read it here

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4237853.html?page=6

I hope rearview mirrors are optional. I won't like it if they have side mirrors instead of cameras in the production models.:mad: My dashboard will look rediculously empty, who would want that???

[garygid]

Part of the attractiveness of the Aptera (as seen so far) is the use of a few high-tech features not found elsewhere. The three-camera rear-view system (I assume that they are color) is one of the most visible. I certainly hope they keep the camera system. For me, it is one of the compelling features.

In fact, if they include a USB port to the computer, I would like to see them allow a user to plug in a webcam there, specially if they also have Wi-Fi connectivity from the car's computer. Some WebCams have a microphone built in

However, I hope that they include a built-in microphone for future voice commands of the car and the GPS.

[butter]

You have read it here

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4237853.html?page=6



LQuan, I love the authority with which you stated that. heheh

[LeeW]

Xenon/HID technology is quickly becoming overtaken by LED technology. Seoul has just released a new LED, the Seoul P7 which generates about 700 lumins with a power usage of about 10w, that is simular brightness to a 10w HID but without the disadvantages of HID such as limited bulb life and expensive bulb replacement. LEDs are also instant on without warmup period or restrike time and are dimmable. See http://www.ledsmagazine.com/news/5/2/27

[in4mer]

While we're on the subject, might be worth pointing out some technology that I don't think has gotten quite as much play as might be deserved:

www.physorg.com/news125238861.html (http://www.physorg.com/news125238861.html)

In summation, their product is a largish rice grain-sized, metal-less glass bulb filled with argon, heated to around 6,000K (by alot of RF), producing some 140 lumens per watt, at 250 watts. Yowsa!

Luxim's (the company with the tech) current prototype, model, whatever, uses a fairly large amount of power very, very efficiently. Unfortunately, there is little on their site to suggest that their technology scales downward by the order of magnitude ideal for vehicular applications.

In doing some research for this post, I've happened across some interesting numbers: HID does okay efficiency, depending on the installation. Some kit retailers claim implied efficacies somewhere around 75lm/w, from random wattage/output numbers I've found looking at HID kits on the intarwebs. This figure seems to be somewhat inflated, as wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy#Lighting_efficiency) claims HID (xenon) tops out around 50lm/w. LED is supposed to get up to 98lm/w in reliable installations, and labs have been able to get up to 150lm/w, but who knows how usable the spectrum was (paraphrasing the wiki, and looking at wiki sources (http://members.misty.com/don/led.html))

So, all in all, LED is looking like a more preferrable method of lighting in terms of efficiency, predicted service-life, and possibly weight. I'm not sure anyone has developed a practical automotive focus method for multiple point or near-point sources of light, like LEDs. Not sure if you'd need one, really.. Maybe it's better to have small individual lenses, and maybe have each housing be slightly steerable, for dynamically reconfigurable lighting spread and range needs/configurations.

On that note, it'd be awfully cool to have a forward-looking camera arrangement tailored to recognize and calibrate each lamp. Maybe by visual-field subtraction; turn one lamp off for a fraction of a second a few times per second, capture the frames from the on-off performance over a few minutes to hopefully remove environment variance, and calculate the pattern being cast by that particular module. Also might be an easy, quick way to recognize inoperative elements in the array, and prompt for repair. Or, just have the lamps go through a self-test and calibration dance every time the vehicle is started when it's dark enough for the test to work. Depending on the servo design, a factory/service centre calibration might be all that's required, but a start-up functional check would be nice, and would probably look cool too. Disableable in software, hopefully.

So, LED sounds like the way to go for efficiency purists, and HID sounds like a good turn-key solution for a quick time-to-market, at the cost of increased power draw, and possibly increased weight (just a theory; I have no idea or data to back that up).

Don't even say halogen.

%nfsd

--
#622h

Using computers is alot like carving soap. Using windows is like carving soap with a wooden spoon. It will probably take awhile, and might not look like what you had in mind. Using UNIX is like carving soap with a double-edged razor. You'll get what you want quickly, but will probably end up bloody in the process.

[KarenRei]

Everything needs to be extremely energy-efficient.

[Chupacabra]

Speaking of LEDs, I did a quick search accidentally typing in LCD Headlight and came up with this...

http://www.engadget.com/2005/10/07/caption-contest-screenlights-headlight-lcds/

[jhelms54]

I was really hoping that the Aptera would come with Xenon lights as at least an option. Since it doesnt look good at this point what are the implications of installing them aftermarket be?

I have heard two side of the story for Xenons, some say they take a ton more voltage draw and some say they take more amperage. I am not an electrical engineer so I am hoping someone can get techy with me.

Thanks,

[randyd]

I have heard two side of the story for Xenons, some say they take a ton more voltage draw and some say they take more amperage. I am not an electrical engineer so I am hoping someone can get techy with me.


This page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenon_arc_lamp) discusses Xenon arc lamps and this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy#Lighting_efficiency) discusses how efficient each kind of light source is.

Cooldbulbs.com has a FAQ page (http://www.coolbulbs.com/HID_faq.asp) that I found helpful. According to that page, it takes 20,000 Volts to ignite the arc, or start the bulb. Once started, 85V is sufficient to maintain the arc and to keep the light lit. These are 35 Watt bulbs so the (DC) current is around 0.4 Amps at 85V, or about 3 Amps at 12V with a DC-DC converter to increase the voltage from 12V to 85V (and 20,000V for ignition). So these lamps require some fancy electronics to control them.

Also from the FAQ page:
NO XENON H.I.D. lighting system available from any source is DOT / E approved if installed outside of the factory. These kits are not street legal for use on public roads as they are. So I don't think I will be adding Xenon headlamps to my Aptera. ;)

[MegaAutoBit]

I hope we get HID lighting too. I have Xenon lights in both of my cars now, and I can't see going back. At night while driving a family members car with out HID's I feel blind. Once I actually had to get out to check to see if the lights were on. This is a big time kill for me. I don't believe in illegal retrofits blinding others to get HID's.

[jstdadd]

Don't even say halogen.

Halogen.

Take away my Fridays, see what I care!:jumping0001:

[jhelms54]

Randyd, Great info thanks. So do you think it will be too hard on the batteries?

I have heard the DOT story before. Not sure how they can police it since it is an option in some cars. I am not sure that the police has a listing of every car in existence that utilizes Xenons or not. I've done it before and I'll do it again.

[RainCaster]

Part of what makes the HIDs so good is the optics. Because the arc location is so repeatable & precise, the lens and reflector assembly can do a better job and focus more light into a smaller space.

[Ardie3301]

Y'know, its in Aptera's interest to use components that consume the smallest amount of power, and High Intensity Discharge lamps are it.

Looking at photos of the 2e's headlights, they sure look like HIDs to me.

-- Ardie

[KarenRei]

I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see HIDs as an option. Just like aluminum or magnesium wheels versus the standard steel. It's only logical, and gives Aptera another avenue for profit.

[randyd]

And another feature on the "Safety first" list.

[appyfan]

Looking at photos of the 2e's headlights, they sure look like HIDs to me.

I'm not too sure which pictures your looking at, but from the ones I've seen they just look like regular, old (but still cool looking) projector beams with a simple H type bulb behind...

And with regards to the 'legality' issue of HIDs... I don't really care if I'm illegal. What I'm more worried about is the possibiliy of 'headlight dazzle' as the current headlamp design doesn't incorporate an auto-leveling function (standard with HID [or xenon] units). Unless I'm wrong, and HID conversions already take this sort of thing into consideration.. :sign0029:

[Rat]

I prefer the regular lights. We have HID on our Acura, but not on our Volvo. Our neighborhood has no streetlights or sidewalks and a lot of people walk in the street at night. Also, there are quite a few dips at the intersections, causing the car's lights to go up and down. I use high beams all the time and you can't really do that with the HID without blinding everyone and even on low beams, at the dips they shine up into the eyes of oncoming drivers. I have better control and better vision with the regular lights, put on bright when safe to do so, but I don't see it as a big issue. I can live with them either way, but if HID cost more, then I hope the Aptera doesn't have them as standard, or tied into a package so that you have to buy them if you want something else.

[n_dawg]

Apparently I'm strange in that I wouldn't want them.

That blue hue is completely awful for your scotopic vision. Basically your night-vision is more harmed by blue light than your day-vision is, so it "tricks" the tests. If the standards bodies knew what they were doing, xenons as we know them would be outlawed (though lower intensity ones would probably still be around).

As someone who got in an accident in a small car because the driver was blinded by an oncoming SUV (in the US, headlights are aimed the same regardless of height, putting tall vehicles at an unfair advantage), I probably appreciate more than most the impact of headlight bedazzlement.

[Telchar]

Hear hear. I tend to drive with one eye closed at night whenever someone is approaching me from the front to preserve my night vision, with my mirrors all pointed down to keep the lights of the guy in the big SUV behind me from blinding me. The blue lights are even worse. Stock headlights are plenty bright for safe driving.

[rfrf]

Xenon HID is available in a very wide color range, from lemon yellow to violet. 4100k xenon is clear white.

Do keep in mind that the blueish hue is not always caused by the lightbulb, but by the light unit itself. Especially when cars are fitted with aftermarket HID bulbs in halogen projector units.

[MegaAutoBit]

Xenon HID is available in a very wide color range, from lemon yellow to violet. 4100k xenon is clear white.

Do keep in mind that the blueish hue is not always caused by the lightbulb, but by the light unit itself. Especially when cars are fitted with aftermarket HID bulbs in halogen projector units.

Hear Hear.

[hill]

Actually Xenon is rather passé in the world of headlight technology. The latest & greatest? LED. The 2010 Prius has 'em in the high end model w/ all the extras (except the solar sun roof). The LED's are not only bright, but EXTREAMLY low power (and expensive). I'll be test drivinging the 2010 this Sunday up at the Nokia center in L.A. and turning the headlights on to see what I think. Being the Aptera 1st release will be pure EV (and wanting to NOT have a bunch of parasitic power loss), it'd be WAY cool if it too had 'em. Maybe when the price comes down . . . WAY down.

[KarenRei]

LED headlights are harder to make than most people would expect. One of the biggest culprits is one of the things most people would think least likely: heat. LEDs are very sensitive to temperature, and even though they don't create much heat, all clustered in together, it's very easy for them to cause themselves problems under continued operation. Also, there are some big engineering challenges in getting enough intensity at a good angle.

Also, while LEDs blow incandescents out of the water, and are better than even CFLs in many cases, they don't dominate so much in the headlight arena.

[hill]

LED headlights are harder to make than most people would expect. One of the biggest culprits is one of the things most people would think least likely: heat. LEDs are very sensitive to temperature, and even though they don't create much heat, all clustered in together, it's very easy for them to cause themselves problems under continued operation. Also, there are some big engineering challenges in getting enough intensity at a good angle.

Also, while LEDs blow incandescents out of the water, and are better than even CFLs in many cases, they don't dominate so much in the headlight arena.

Very true! Fact is it's brand new technology. The 1st model to have 'em was the Lexus hybrid, and THAT is was just tried for the 1st time on last year's model (2008's). Here's a picture of the Lexus' LED's: