A Matter of Extreme Importance/Horn

[Prestadude]

We have collectively obsessed over various aspects of the Aptera design, windows, seats, tires, batteries and so forth. Well, let's get down to the nitty gritty, the horn! Since we are dealing with an electric vehicle with limited space for extra equipment, we must presume that the horn must be electrical (darn, I really like air horns). We could go with old technology, the standard but boring Detroit honk, our we could have some sort of speaker fitted with an amp. Now we can generate just about any sound we can imagine.

The Aptera is different and so must be the horn sound. The horn sound must also have a penetrating/alerting quality (that is the purpose of a horn). Beyond that, we can let our imagination run wild (unless there is come boring set of design standards that must be met). I personnally am torn between something that upbeat and non-threatening, and something more ominous. An example of an upbeat/nonthreatening sound would be the BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) train beep. Something ominous would be like the initial bass tones generated by the mother ship in the classic movie "Close Encounteres of the Third Kind" (you remember the scene, the tone that blew the windows out of the control booth). Any other ideas or suggestions?

[butter]

I've actually thought about this myself. As long as it doesn't sound meek and pathetic like my current 1999 Corolla, I'm fine. Heck, even if it DOES sound like it, I'm used to sounding like a nerd weakly protesting some SUV that almost sideswiped me. Plus, I like to think of myself as a honk-abstainer: honking is in most cases overrated and overdone.

[KarenRei]

I'd love to have custom "honktones" :) They don't have to be musical like ringtones, but giving you the ability to set your own with several preset options would be really fun.

[butter]

that could get dangerous; i may try to find a way to record mp3s of myself shouting expletives and using those... heh

[fritzponds]

Definitely needs a futuristic horn sound.

[garygid]

If the "honk-sound" is generated by the computer and actualized
through a speaker, then it would seem possible to make or
use custom "honk" sounds.

However, if the "honk" is just a traditional electrical auto horn,
energized with just the application of a DC voltage, then
customization would be much more difficult (but not impossible
if one replaces the "horn" with a sufficiently-amplified MP3 player).

[wwwtractor]

The Aptera horn should sound lke a phaser or photon torpedo from Star Trek.

[appyfan]

Where would it go? That's what I'm trying to figure out...

[evolutionmovement]

120db air raid siren.

[appyfan]

120db air raid siren.

LOL!

This message isn't too short.

[aptera1213]

stebel compact nautilus air horn...small (i have one on my motorcycle) and LOUD...makes everyone think you are a mack truck

g

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410V1ZFP7QL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

[gg222]

Here is what it sounds like ...

http://www.bikerhiway.com/images/stebel/nautilushorn.mp3

I think I want one.

[gistmarrs]

That's awesome. I want one!

[SpyderMike]

a dinosaur fart

[3-4-me]

I need a couple of those, how much, and where do I get 'em?

[ApteraStorm]

I agree it needs to be loud... and I hope it's distinctive. Honda's horn is very distinctive... I can always tell a Honda arming its alarm.

[Chupacabra]

I want an old style horn... Awwwww Hoooooooooga!

[appyfan]

Yeah... That's all fine and good, but where are they going to put it? It's not like they can simply mount it in its "grille".:confused:

[gistmarrs]

Could it be mounted with the opening in the rear wheel cowling? That is about the only place that is open the outside and large enough.

[KarenRei]

Or you could just honk through the hood... don't see why it must have an opening to the air.

[appyfan]

Or you could just honk through the hood... don't see why it must have an opening to the air.

I need my soundwaves to be able to travel freely within my atmosphere via any opening in the car. No obstructions. I'm OCD like that.

[kimgkimg]

stebel compact nautilus air horn...small (i have one on my motorcycle) and LOUD...makes everyone think you are a mack truck

That reminds me of the BadBoy horn they have over at Harbor Freight. My brother has one of these on his Frontier and it's nice and loud. (Sorry, system won't let me post the URL, go to harborfreight(dot)com and search on "horn".)

So why does the horn on the Aptera have to be electrical? Is it a electrical current thing with the compressor or something?

[gg222]

Here is the link:

Bad Boy Horn (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94117)

[Matthijs]

XvdjOsvBXFU
Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvdjOsvBXFU)

I know it over the top, but kind of funny.

http://hornblasters.com/

[garygid]

How fast would this horn (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94862) respond to pressing the "horn" button?
($16 12V AIR HORN WITH COMPRESSOR)

Or, this $12 Two-horn system (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=40134) ...

Presumably, it takes a fraction of a second to build up
enough pressure to respond and "blast".

The horn system must be electrically driven, because there is
nothing else to power it with on the Aptera. As these horns
above, the horns themselves can be powered by compressed air
(thus "air-horns"), but the small compressor is electrical.

[kimgkimg]

Presumably, it takes a fraction of a second to build up
enough pressure to respond and "blast".

The horn system must be electrically driven, because there is
nothing else to power it with on the Aptera. As these horns
above, the horns themselves can be powered by compressed air
(thus "air-horns"), but the small compressor is electrical.

Well usually the compressor will take more current than a standard electrical "meep meep" horn. I've usually had to install a relay and lines directly to the battery to prevent the horn's compressor from popping fuses.

Yeah, I've had the "mount the compressor and hook the trumpets up with tubes" style before, but I've always had an annoying delay between pressing the horn button and getting sound satisfaction. That's why I like the Badboy with it's integrated compressor, there's very little delay. You won't hear the chirp from your keyless car locking anymore though.

[garygid]

Yep, the three-horn system (and many other horns) come
with a relay, and they want you to wire in a 30-amp fuse.

I wonder how much current the Aptera's "12 volt" system
will be able to deliver? And, where the fuses for this
system will be, and if there will be any spare fuse sockets.

[KarenRei]

I still vote for a loud electric speaker that can play "Honktones" so you can choose whatever sound you want. :) I'd love to confuse people -- perhaps something like:

* Foghorn
* Clown horn
* Bicycle bell
* Barking dog
* Elephant
* Chicken
* Trumpets
* Car accident (okay, that'd just be mean ;) )
* Coughing
* Person saying, "Vote Dukakis!" (or some other candidate from a previous election)
* Person saying the word, "Honk". (Bonus points if the voice sounds like a celebrity)

(Come to think of it, I do have a high quality audio clip of Madonna saying, "What the f*** do you think you're doing?" Would probably work well for a honk :) )

[gg222]

That would be cool. Could you program the Jetsons theme song?

http://www.kfcplainfield.com/sound/jetsons.mp3

Ok, might be too hard.

[garygid]

Here is a $50 PA speaker and various "horn" sounds, sirens, songs, etc.

http://www.jcwhitney.com/GARAGE-PRO-46-SOUND-ELECTRONIC-HORNS-WITH-PA/GP_2009064_N_111+10201+600015169_10101.jcw

However, it does not look like it can be programmed for custom songs.

[evolutionmovement]

Had an older unit of that in my first Subaru. The dog barking would get all the dogs in my friend's neighborhood going nuts. Police siren was good for scaring a woman that blew through a stop sign into a busy intersection and nearly caused a pile-up. Wish they had the elephant one back then.

[garygid]

Cool, so the volume and clarity was good?
What model did you have?

CAUTION: I think that using the police and emergency siren sounds in CA
is illegal, and could get one a ticket if observed by a officer of the law.

[jstdadd]

How about this wav file: http://tinyurl.com/JetsonCarStop

Oh, no, that may make a better "Anticollision" sound...as it goes by!

[jstdadd]

That'll do! Where do I write my check for the hornblaster!

[jstdadd]

How about Rodney Dangerfield muttering: "I don't get no respect!"

[evolutionmovement]

The sounds were absolutely clear, but some were more realistic than others. The dog (two dogs - a small dog followed by a big dog), cow, and rooster were good. The cat ... I don't know what the hell that noise was, but the only way it would sound like a cat is if one was being run over quickly.

The police siren is COMPLETELY illegal to use, especially with flashing lights. Fun isn't always legal.

[Ardie3301]

I don't know about you guys, but I want a horn that sounds like a horn.
No "La Cucaracha," no wierd honktones, no funny sounds where people will think "what IS that noise?" I want them to notice me and stay out of my way.

BEEEEP!

Okay, maybe the sound of screeching brakes.
-- Ardie

[SEGsby]

A horn should be easy to place behind the honeycomb grills of either one, or both of the frontal ventilation intake slots; which are cleverly designed as part of the headlight assemblies.

[garygid]

What "honeycomb grills"?

In fact "horn Location" is a very good question:
Where would Aptera place the horn so that it will be heard loudly on the
outside and not blow out the eardrums of the cabin occupants?

[KarenRei]

They look kind of like nares (nostrils); they're on the inside edge of the headlight assembly.

[garygid]

I know about the nares, but I had not seen any nares-hairs (the honeycomb grills). :happy0025:

Is there a picture that shows these grills (boysen(berry)-grills)?

[Apt3448]

I know about the nares, but I had not seen any nares-hairs (the honeycomb grills). :happy0025:

Is there a picture that shows these grills (boysen(berry)-grills)?
The picture that was posted yesterday in the thread on solar taxi shows steve next to his Aptera in a parking lot, which gives a nice view of the inlets and the little honeycomb grill.
Even better: look at
http://api.ning.com/files/Lt6dVHYlaLB9hWyfGrpUfQQRZMB-pRb*ZUruPcrjZMg5g8PesoS*VCvsFbWv93XjVE8C900ORT5wei nAmHEhfyQl2jV9uTJY/IMG_0455.JPG
You can zoom in nicely on the inlet closest to you

[garygid]

Splendid, Thanks for your help, Gary.

I expect the grill might change in the Production model
to one with less area blocking the air flow.
This grill looks like around 32.68% blocked.

[Apt3448]

This grill looks like around 32.68% blocked.
I had guessed it at about 32.41%....:)

[garygid]

Yep, you got the idea. :happy0025:

I thought that one might be able to attach a tow cable inside each
air vent, but it seems that one would have to "pop out" the grill first.
Not impossible, I think.

However, the remove-plug and insert the screw-in eye-bolt is better.

[Rat]

The horn is actually a significant safety issue for any electric car. Having driven a Prius, I know that they can really sneak up on pedestrians and bicyclists who just can't hear them, especially when pushing a stroller, listening to the iPod, wheeling a shopping cart, etc. It may need a horn with two sounds - one just to alert the pedestrians one foot away to move aside and another louder one for normal driving situations. This issue concerns my wife as she has almost been run over by a stealth Prius for this reason.

[Spank Daddy]

Once some people start getting hit by electric cars, manufacturers will probably start embedding a "speaker" that sounds when it is in motion (I vote for the Jetson car sound).

[n_dawg]

Once some people start getting hit by electric cars, manufacturers will probably start embedding a "speaker" that sounds when it is in motion (I vote for the Jetson car sound).

Ugh, I hope not. The people that don't look will rapidly be weeded out. ;)

Seriously though, here's a fascinating article about why noise pollution is bad (http://www.wired.com/science/planetearth/magazine/16-06/st_thompson).

[garygid]

I LOOK (both ways) for vehicles because I know that they can kill me.
Even if I had the right-of-way, I value not being "dead" even more.

But, there are many who do not look, even when walking against the lights,
and especially in parking lots.
They just walk where the cars go, and appear to not care very much.
When driving, I try to miss them, primarily because I do not want to damage my vehicle.
Also, in some places it is actually illegal to run over illegal aliens, go figure.

Listening for sounds ... a risky choice of lifestyles, I suspect.

However, I admit that I usually do not expect to encounter vehicles
on the sidewalk.

[evolutionmovement]

Gary, A misanthropic comment I'd be proud to post myself!

You have to look regardless of noise - say you have a bus or some other loud diesel passing you as you wait at a crosswalk, you probably wouldn't be able to hear anything following it electric or otherwise, but only a Darwin Award candidate would take that as an all clear and just go without looking. The human brain devotes far more energy to vision than hearing and the eye responds quickly to movement. Blind people have an obvious excuse, but there's none for the rest of us to not be looking. Hell, I've seen dogs stop and look both ways before crossing a street.

The rare blind people I've seen have always used crosswalks and signals, but I agree that maybe there should be a quiet pedestrian setting for the horn. Actually, kids would be the greater concern as they're usually pretty stupid and the overprotective parents today don't help by isolating them.

[garygid]

In Germany people tend to follow the German rules (otherwise they would
not be truly German). While I was there, I saw this:

At one signal-controlled crossing of a narrow 2-lane country road (not
at an intersection), there was a crowd of a dozen or more "good" Germans
waiting to cross the road. Even though there was no traffic of any kind
on that little road for the entire time, they were waiting for the signal to
change, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting ...

While they continued to wait, and I continued to watch, a duck waddled
up behind the group of Germans, and it walked toward the curb through
the forest of legs. At the curb, the duck stopped and slowly looked
first one way, then slowly turned its head to look the other way. Then,
apparently satisfied, the duck hopped off the curb and waddled to
the other side of the road, and continued on its journey.

Yes, the Germans were still waiting.

What is the moral of this story?
Right. Obviously, this was a foreign duck, and not German.

[daddio]

You are all living in the "rat race" and worried about how to deal with it / with the :aptera: ....
We purchase a parcel in ranch land, where we hope "the race" will end... and Aptera fun can start!
If you can work from home or retire.. or until you can get to that "place"... then these worries will fade...
Find a remote location with small town for basic needs.. you and your Aptera will be less stressed. And when you need the occasional larger town needs... zip over in that:aptera:

[Spank Daddy]

Prediction Alert:

It is inevitable...someone will sue (and win) due to the fact that up until recently, all cars made a certain level of noise when in motion. They will claim that they "didn't know that an electric car made less noise". The lawsuit will be brought upon the manufacturer (deep pockets) and they will make mad cash.

Look what happened to McDonalds ("I didn't know the coffee would burn my lap...." = $$Millions$$) Since car manufacturers cannot post a large enough disclaimer on the car like McDonalds did on their coffee cups, my opinion is that they will have to emulate a car sound.

It sounds stupid, but here is a bill that has already been introduced to congress:
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/110-h5734/show

What do you think will happen?

[speculawyer]

Prediction Alert:
It is inevitable...someone will sue (and win) due to the fact that up until recently, all cars made a certain level of noise when in motion. They will claim that they "didn't know that an electric car made less noise". The lawsuit will be brought upon the manufacturer (deep pockets) and they will make mad cash.
I suspect this issue has been dealt with already. Plenty of places have electric buses powered by overhead powerlines. I've almost stepped in front of one myself in San Francisco.

[garygid]

More noise is not a great solution ... I vote NO!
Look for another way.

Maybe: Require each blind person to have a directional EM detector,
and require them to use it to detect vehicle EM signatures.

How would the added "noise" help the deaf pedestrian?
If this about blind-pedestrian rights, how about the deaf-pedestrian's rights?
How about the hearing person's rights?

In most heavy-traffic situations, there is so much noise from other sources
that the sounds of an individual ICE vehicle often cannot be heard.

Would "quiet" ICE vehicles also require additional noise makers?

They had to make the use of horns illegal in Paris, the noise was so bad.

Should vehicles running red lights be required to make special noises?

If it is illegal to drive when using a 2-ear headset (because you cannot hear
other "warnings" properly), should it be illegal for "deaf" people to drive?

Should it be illegal to be a pedestrian and wear a 2-ear headset,
for the same reason?

Should joggers be allowed to run with two-ear headsets?

Should it be illegal for sighted, ambulatory people (not in a crosswalk)
to not keep out of the way of cars?

Should it be legal for a pedestrian to just go out and stand in traffic?

[daddio]

Maybe it is our culture...
I travel the bullet train (Nozomi) in Japan which can reach 300 KPH (186mph). It is electric and pretty quiet...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nozomi_(Shinkansen)
People just need to LOOKOUT!
It is not like the :aptera: is invisible

Or add your favorite jingle if there are worries when you are "in town":
http://www.audiosparx.com/sa/archive/Transportation/Trucks/Ice-cream-truck/32207

[jstdadd]

Awesome prediction. Can you get me the winner in the 7th on Friday at Del Mar?

[sk8ndad]

This makes as much sense as having someone walking in front of motor cars with a lantern. Things change and people adapt. When people can not depend on a certain noise level to identify an approaching car, they willl come up with another way. We don't need a law to make quite cars noisy.

[jstdadd]

I think the real answer here is that the driver needs to have self-awareness that this vehicle may be only slightly more noisy than a bicycle. Take extreme care, especially in residential areas and keep an eye out for the pedestrian.

And, really, do people get hit 'all the time' by bicycles?

[Rat]

Emotionally I'm with Gary in his rant (above). People don't take responsibility for their idiocy. But as a lawyer, I know the reality that juries are made up of such idiots, who see almost any tort action as a chance to transfer wealth from a corporation or other deep pocket to the poor little guy. It doesn't matter that the poor little guy is an idiot who claims he didn't know coffee was hot and that if only McDonalds had put a label on the cup to warn of that he wouldn't have spilled it all over his gonads. Juries don't believe that crap; they just feel sorry for the injured person and figure that's what insurance is for, so it won't really cost anyone anything. As I said, juries are idiots, even though not all jurors are. As George Carlin said, "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. " Any decent plaintiff's lawyer can ensure that a jury's median IQ will be below that of the general population.

I'm not sure horns or other warning devices will deal with that problem. The fact is that now ICEs are so quiet that this problem already exists. It's certainly true that we scared some lady out of her wits in a parking lot when we honked after getting our Acura. She couldn't hear us even though we were driving only two feet behind her for at least ten yards or so that close. But she did move to the side so we could drive by! The clueless pedestrian (Latin: Ambulator Oblivius) will always be among us and vehicles will always be legally required to yield to him or her. The horn is for your own benefit, to get them to move out of your way (or not move into your way) when they are unaware of your presence, not because it will prevent a lawsuit or save you liability if you hit them. I see benefit from having a pleasant, quiet option audible to that person within five feet but not the whole neighborhood.

[garygid]

We are no longer limited by the old technology that could only
produce loud "squawks" and "beeps" for the horn's caution/alert.

If the Aptera "horn" is implemented with an external speaker, we could,
in addition to the more conventional "Beep" sounds, "honk" one of several
clearly pronounced pre-recorded sound files, like
"Pardon me. May I get by, Please?", or "Caution, I am passing on your left."
It could even add some nice personality to the vehicle.

This would seem to be a splendid advancement in "horn" sounds.

After all, are we not trying to demonstrate that people can change,
and even more, that we have changed for the better?

Like it or not, we will all be representatives of a new movement,
and of Aptera. I hope we will all be able to make Aptera proud of us.

[rotus8]

Here's the answer:
http://www.vroombox.com/vroombox/
Someone actually makes a product for this! :rolleye0003:

[sk8ndad]

Here's the answer:
http://www.vroombox.com/vroombox/
Someone actually makes a product for this! :rolleye0003:

So we get a fabulously quite car that has the hope of ridding inner cities of some of the noise pollution and we get to add something to it so it can be just as noisy as the other cars...should we get something that creates artificial gas fumes so the deaf folks can smell it :happy0025:

[Raiyn]

Here's the answer:
http://www.vroombox.com/vroombox/
Someone actually makes a product for this! :rolleye0003:
Good idea for parking lots. Good for a laugh too.

[evolutionmovement]

Maybe it's my speakers but those sounds are terrible. The Lamborghini V12 (misspelled on the site) sounds nothing like one. Any of them (though they're all related). The 350Z doesn't sound right either. Didn't bother with the rest.

[earther]

in addition to the more conventional "Beep" sounds, "honk" one of several
clearly pronounced pre-recorded sound files, like
"Pardon me. May I get by, Please?", or "Caution, I am passing on your left."

While it's a cute touch, bear in mind that any "horn words" would only convey meaning to English speakers; thus, they would have to be utilized as a supplement to a more universal sound. (In much the same way that in the usa the red octagonal stop sign has the superfluous "STOP" written upon it).

-Steve

[n_dawg]

So, R2-D2 sounds?

[Louv]

I've always thought that the sound of an 18-wheeler's tires locked up, skidding towards you, and blasting an airhorn would be the best horn. And it would give extra benefit if you owned stock in Fruit-of-the-Loom.

[BryanSR]

How about the Governator voice sound OR even the Presidential voice sound... since it is a computer it CAN be changed after elections.... LOL

[jstdadd]

Lotus Development Corp has a demonstrator sound-producing system exactly for this purpose, called 'Safe and Sound'. There is a link in the article to a website where you can hear this sound, demonstrated on a Prius.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/05/lotus-announces-safe-and-sound-hybrid-demonstrator/

[garygid]

Perhaps you humanoids do not know how to live without pollution?
Noise, air, water, roadsides, sidewalks, curbs and gutters.

Very few appear to object much, and almost all contribute to the mess.

All persons feeling the need for more feedback from vehicles could be
offered the chance to wear a "Marco Polo" transponder. Then, when
they are detected by a Marco-Enabled vehicle, the vehicle could emit a "Polo" warning, or "beep", or shrill "Over here ...".

Then, we would all know where these people were, by the noisy din
that would follow them around wherever they went.

Perhaps humanoids do not approve of "Natural Selection" or understand
its benefits, or understand the consequences of corruption of the gene pool.
Very strange indeed, for creatures that call themselves "intelligent".

[Raiyn]

Lotus Development Corp has a demonstrator sound-producing system exactly for this purpose, called 'Safe and Sound'. There is a link in the article to a website where you can hear this sound, demonstrated on a Prius.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/05/lotus-announces-safe-and-sound-hybrid-demonstrator/
Good article

Perhaps humanoids do not approve of "Natural Selection" or understand
its benefits, or understand the consequences of corruption of the gene pool.
Very strange indeed, for creatures that call themselves "intelligent".

Perhaps certain humanoids don't want to be drawn into frivolous litigation by opportunistic neer-do-wells?

[Eyelawdoc]

If anything would fit it would probably be a Stebel Compact Nautilus Dual Air Horn. It's only about 4" X 3" X 2 1/2 ", weighs about 1 pound, can be mounted with only 1 bolt and puts out 119 dB! It can be mounted just about anywhere.

I installed one two weeks ago on my Honda Insight and love it.

[iwannaptera]

Perhaps you humanoids do not know how to live without pollution?
Noise, air, water, roadsides, sidewalks, curbs and gutters.

Very few appear to object much, and almost all contribute to the mess.

All persons feeling the need for more feedback from vehicles could be
offered the chance to wear a "Marco Polo" transponder. Then, when
they are detected by a Marco-Enabled vehicle, the vehicle could emit a "Polo" warning, or "beep", or shrill "Over here ...".

Then, we would all know where these people were, by the noisy din
that would follow them around wherever they went.

Perhaps humanoids do not approve of "Natural Selection" or understand
its benefits, or understand the consequences of corruption of the gene pool.
Very strange indeed, for creatures that call themselves "intelligent".


I know everyone is joking and all. I just have to say that I live very close to a large blind persons college. I see blind people walking to school everyday, crossing streets, waiting for traffic, getting on the bus etc. They do a fine job. They do indeed rely EXTREMELY HEAVILY on the sound of traffic. Sure all the cross walks have those stupid little beepers on them that tell the blind when the little green/white man on the walk/don't walk sign is lit up. Unfortunately, one intersection is a six way intersection, how are they supposed to easily tell which direction is beeping? They don't, they just listen for the sound of the traffic. What about when the crossing doesn't have a beeper, what about when the button to request a cross doesn't work? They use their ears. Until now, it has been a great way to avoid getting hit.

Further, I myself have almost been run over by a hybrid that hasn't turned its gas engine on yet. Sometimes I'm distracted and I step out into the street without checking for traffic because the little green/white man tells me it's safe and because I don't hear any cars coming my way. Sure it isn't smart, but it used to be fool proof for 100% of the cars on the road. Now those sneaky hybrids are sometimes impossible to hear! Everyone who doesn't think its a problem probably doesn't spend much time walking around in a high density/high traffic city street environment where there are a lot of hybrid and electric vehicles. Every day here in SF, there are more and more PHEVs, NEVs, BEVs etc. Every day it's becoming more and more of a problem. Maybe it's just my neighboorhood right now with its strange mix of super rich boomers and young hip late 20's early 30's double income no kids people (the two biggest electric vehicle demographics). But soon, everywhere will be like that.

It seems funny now. I admit when I first heard about the idea of purposely making electric cars noisy about 3 years ago, I thought " oh there go those liberal nut jobs trying to over regulate everything they can get their hands on." And I'm a liberal! Now, as more and more of these silent vehicles get on the road, I find myself encountering more and more uncomfortable situations where I am just about to step into the road, I turn around at the last minute to look for traffic, and I see some plug in prius creeping up on me and making absolutely no noise. Yes, I should be intelligent and look, but if it hasn't happened to you, you have no idea how easy it is.

When I get my aptera, I AM going to put a noise maker on it. Probably epoxied to the inside of a wheel pant or something to avoid aerodynamic issues and so I don't have to hear it. It won't be loud. It will sound like a car idling. It will be small. Of course, I live around a bunch of blind people and I don't want them all stepping out onto the street in front of me constantly. I'll wire it up to the ignition switch just like you do when you put in a car stereo.:happy0025:

[garygid]

The "little green/white man tells me it's safe" does NOT say it is safe,
only that you are legal to go. Around here, MANY people begin crossing
when the solid red hand is shown, not even flashing. It seems that they
just do not care. And, occasionally some vehicle runs the red lights.

Just yesterday I had stopped at a red light and was just about to turn right
when a lady with a baby stepped off the curb and walked (although quickly)
across 8 lanes of traffic toward the other side. Yes, all against the steady red hand.
I could easily have killed her, and the baby, if I had not seen her just in time.

If I am forced to put a noise-maker in my quiet vehicle, so that it
bothers ME and the people around me ALL of the time, just so that it might
possibly help the one person a year that needs it, ... I will also install
a VERY LOUD horn that I will use whenever I approach a crosswalk
and somebody is preparing to cross at a bad time ...
as any good person trying to help them and warn them would do, of course. :happy0025:

[iwannaptera]

The "little green/white man tells me it's safe" does NOT say it is safe,
agreed. Sorry, obviously I worded it a little inaccurately. The little green man says "if you are going to cross, now might be a good time to look around (or listen around if you are blind) and ascertain the safety and then cross if it is safe to do so." Who knew the little green man was so talkative!

If I am forced to put a noise-maker in my quiet vehicle, so that it
bothers ME and the people around me ALL of the time, just so that it might
possibly help the one person a year that needs it,
Where did anyone talk about bothering anyone. If the noisemaker is about the same level of noise or a little softer than a regular car at low speed/idling, on the outside of the vehicle, and appropriately forward facing, then it is not going to bother anyone. It is going to help people. It is going to forestall a lot of uneccessary accidents. Feel free to use your horn. I do all the time. Just remember, no matter what, if a pedestrian steps out in front of you, it is YOUR responsibility NOT TO HIT the pedestrian. Finally, how are you going to feel when someone steps out in front of your 25mph silent aptera accidently and you kill him? I don't care if there is nothing you could have done to avoid it, you are going to feel pretty dang awful.

[KarenRei]

While we're at it, should we put noisemakers on anything that could potentially hurt you so that you know it's there? A noisemaker on your stove? On subway rails? On your fireplace?

I just don't get it. We have more senses than just hearing here, and hearing isn't that reliable in many environments. Noise pollution is still pollution.

[jstdadd]

I think I will just use the roll-down-window feature and scream "Hey, Get Out Of The Way!"

I wonder how all those people on bicycles can get by without making noise when they approach a pedestrian?

[iwannaptera]

I wonder how all those people on bicycles can get by without making noise when they approach a pedestrian?

All those bicycles crowding the intersections? Where do you live? China? I know when I was in college, there were many frequent bicycle pedestrian collisions. Now, not so much. Why? Because there really aren't that many bicycle miles being ridden by people.

[PaulO]

I don't get it. Requiring something to make more noise "pollution" is ridiculous. Why not make the other cars quieter? EVs are quiet but not silent.

If I were to generate additional noise, how loud do I make my car? You could take it to the point that you could only hear the loudest car. Then all the other cars wizzing by would be indistinguishable. Back to where you started. By the same logic, you would continually make all cars louder in an infinite cycle.

[jstdadd]

My neighborhood is full of bicycles and on Saturday and Sunday there will be several groups of 20 or more on the blocks around my house, at various times. They blow the traffic signals almost as a rule and we often see people in distress because they cannot cross with the light because of the 'bike parade'. I am sure a lot of people here will think this is a joke, but it is not.

For a very long time, there will be more bicycles on the road than Apteras.

Drivers taking proper care will make more difference than any combination of noisemakers ever could. Blowing an air horn at the pedestrian is not good manners, in my humble opinion. Good manners and good driving habits go hand-in-hand.

As a former Harley owner, who was occasionally stopped in my small town for 'excessive noise' on my stock bike exhaust, I shall pass along the riders' saying of the time:

"One Man's Noise is Another Man's Music"

See these videos about vehicle noise, for a good laugh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK18wQA-tHs
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20030314/ai_n14545448

Or another slightly more serious: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20030314/ai_n14545448

[iwannaptera]

Well. I am seeing a lot of straw man arguments here. There is the one about how the noise maker would have to be so loud that then the ICE cars wouldn't be heard. There is the one about annoying the neighboors/ polluting the air. There is the one about all the extra cost and effort this is going to be. There is the one comparing the noise of a harley motorcycle or a specially modified muffler/ blast pack to the noise maker I'm talking about for notifying pedestrians (hint we are talking about a an order of magnitude less noise than a stock harley).

I think if everyone took a deep breath and actually thought about the fact that it really wouldn't be much effort, that we aren't talking about a particularly "loud" noise maker, that it would cost BILLIONS if not more to retrofit ICE cars to be quieter instead, that we aren't talking about making electric cars louder or even as loud as ICE cars, that subways are louder than any electric car would ever be at a low urban speed, that a crackling fire is as well, that most modern stoves have a warning lite when the top is hot and people appreciate it, that in places with high bicycle densities (say college campuses) bikes do in fact frequently collide with pedestrians that don't hear them (and bikers are frequently asked to add noisemakers to their bikes (i.e. bells/horns/whistles)), that eventually in a car you will forget to shout out the window/ beep the horn, that indeed many people on the planet do rely on the noise vehicles make to avoid dying (the blind), that you may suffer debilitating post traumatic stress disorder when you kill someone through no fault of your own because they stepped out onto the street in front of you etc.

I think after you step back and think about it, you might not be so sure of yourself in saying how "ridiculous" it is, how "overprotective", how "intrusive" it is to require electric cars make some damn noise at low speed. A 1500lb rigid structure colliding with a person at even 10 or 15mph is likely to kill that person.

I'm done with this conversation. Obviously few here agree with me, and hey it's a democracy so go ahead. Many people seem to be exaggerating the amount of noise I am talking about, or pretending like it would cost an obcene amount. Those things are just not true. I would love to talk about the actual merits of the argument without all the hyperbole, but apparently that is just not going to happen. Feel free to speak your piece, I know that I have.

All I know is that if my car is quiet enough to sneak up on a person, I'm going to change that. For the rest of you, I sincerely hope you never accidently hit someone (for yours and the other persons own good) because they stepped out in front of you and didn't hear you coming. Should they have looked? Yes. Will you feel like *&^*%& when they are dead? Well, I don't know, but I would.

[gistmarrs]

Well said, and I agree with you.

I would think one of those deer repellant noise makers for motorcycles would suffice.

[iwannaptera]

My neighborhood is full of bicycles and on Saturday and Sunday there will be several groups of 20 or more on the blocks around my house, at various times. They blow the traffic signals almost as a rule and we often see people in distress because they cannot cross with the light because of the 'bike parade'. I am sure a lot of people here will think this is a joke, but it is not.

Good for you. That suggests to me though that you do not in fact live in an urban environment with lots of pedestrians. If you did, you certainly wouldn't be seeing packs of 20 bikes. We were first talking about pedestrian car interactions. You changed the subject to pedestrian bike interactions, suggesting that pedestrians don't get hit by bikes even though bikes don't make noise. I thought it unlikely that you had much experience with an area with a lot of bikes. This is clearly not true, I apologize. However, it doesn't change anything. You must live in a great cycling area. Most great cycling areas are not full of pedestrian/bicycle or pedestrian/car interactions. Well, not around here anyway. I'm sticking by my statement that bikes, like electric cars, do not interact well with pedestrians without a little noise. In fact my old college campus (15 years ago) REQUIRED bikes to have noise makers for just this very reason.

[APTERA 2356]

JOKE ALERT... ....

Im going to do like everyone els in my area,

tear off the rear hatch, fill the cargo area with speakers and play my thumping music so loud that it'll vibrate the screws outta the frame.

As drivers of new technology the burdon is on us to be extra observant and allow extra space
The public will take time to become used to the quiet technology, drive carefully and expect people to do the wrong thing

[PaulO]

That suggests to me though that you do not in fact live in an urban environment with lots of pedestrians. If you did, you certainly wouldn't be seeing packs of 20 bikes.

There are plenty of places like this with lots of bikes and pedestrians. The area I live in is exactly like this. I would think that there are more bikes in cities with lots of pedestrians. Most major cities, in warmer climates, have a healthy mix of the two.

To me, this all goes back to the mentality that no matter what I do, nothing bad should happen to me. Society can't protect you from everything. Life is full of risks how how you manage those risks. Yes, I would feel horrible if I ever hit anyone. EVs are not silent...They make noise even at low speeds. Both driver and pedestrian have a responsibility.

My question is how loud is loud enough? Seriously, how loud do you think my car needs to be to have an impact on safety of pedestrians?

In fact my old college campus (15 years ago) REQUIRED bikes to have noise makers for just this very reason.
Are you talking about a bell or horn? These are already on cars in the form of horns. I ride 10 miles a day on a bike bath with pedestrians. I have yet to hit anyone or seen anyone get hit.

[Rat]

iwannaptera and gistmarrs, you are absolutely correct. I can't believe how distorted the arguments became from those opposed to controllable, short-range "quiet" horns as I suggested. I can understand some objection to noise producers that are on constantly; that's a little more reasonable. I might agree that is unnecessary as long as there is a horn, just as it's unnecessary to have a card in your spokes on your bicycle as long as you have a bell. But safety is more important than the miniscule marginal noise increase from a small, quiet engine simulator or short-range horn. Calling them "noise pollution" is like calling brake lights "light pollution." I assume Gary and Karen are opposed to those, too, from their extreme positions on horns. Perhaps we should get rid of stop lights, too, and have people "take responsibility for their own actions" and let natural selection remove from the gene pool Aptera owners in favor of SUV and monster truck owners. Of course warning devices are necessary.

[Raiyn]

I might agree that is unnecessary as long as there is a horn, just as it's unnecessary to have a card in your spokes on your bicycle as long as you have a bell. But safety is more important than the miniscule marginal noise increase from a small, quiet engine simulator or short-range horn. Calling them "noise pollution" is like calling brake lights "light pollution." I assume Gary and Karen are opposed to those, too, from their extreme positions on horns. Perhaps we should get rid of stop lights, too, and have people "take responsibility for their own actions" and let natural selection remove from the gene pool Aptera owners in favor of SUV and monster truck owners. Of course warning devices are necessary.
+1
While we're at it, should we put noisemakers on anything that could potentially hurt you so that you know it's there? A noisemaker on your stove? On subway rails? On your fireplace? <shakes head> I'm just not even going to say it.

I just don't get it. We have more senses than just hearing here, and hearing isn't that reliable in many environments. Noise pollution is still pollution.
Ok let me explain this as gently and non-confrontationally as I can.. The reason that some of us (and companies like Lotus) want to put "engine simulators" or other low noise devices on our super quiet electric vehicles is so that BLIND pedestrians who depend on their hearing to sense traffic and other people who (for whatever reason) can't hear the super quiet car might be able to detect it before walking / driving out in front of it in a parking lot or intersection. Nobody here is saying it has to be a full time system, but in certain situations (low speed operation) it could certainly help prevent an accident with someone who doesn't have "more senses".

There's also no reason we can't have some fun with it as well hence the device that sounds like a muscle car to me would be rather humorous when installed on the Aptera

[garygid]

It seems illegal to generate a "noise" (music to some) in your vehicle
that can be heard more than 50 feet away. At 30 mph (44 feet per second)
that gives the blind person just over one second to identify your vehicle's
sound as significant among the many other vehicle (and other) noises,
decide where your noise is coming from, and to stop himself from
stepping into the street. In many cases, this is really just not enough
warning time, I suspect. Thus, almost useless.

The horn, however, must be loud enough to be heard at least 200 feet
away, but not "emit an unreasonably loud or harsh sound". So, maybe
a not unreasonably loud "Car Coming" statement from the "horn" would
be a much better warning than a sound that can almost not be heard.

To make it "automatic", one could legislate that all cars have to broadcast
the message over and over as one traveled along, just on the happens
chance that there is a blind person trying to cross the freeway or jaywalk
across the street. But, not the right thing to legislate, I think.

Outfitting the blind people might be easier than outfitting all the "quiet" cars,
the 1 million Prius vehicles, and all the NEVs and EVs, etc.
So, should they legislate that blind people have to wear a flashing, rotating
red light, capable of being seen for at least 500 feet, on their heads.
Then, other vehicles can better watch out for them.
They already "get" to carry a special stick.
Now, they can also carry the battery pack for the Head-Light.

Whatever you legislate, many will not do it.

The speed limit is 65, but that is not enforced and traffic usually moves
at 75, with the occasional car doing 80 or 85.

Here, it is required to have insurance and a driver's license to dive.
But, the guy driving the pickup truck that hit my wife was an illegal
alien and had neither. Further, the police did not even arrest him,
or impound the truck.

-------------------------
Sound Amplification Devices
27007. No driver of a vehicle shall operate, or permit the operation of, any sound amplification system which can be heard outside the vehicle from 50 or more feet when the vehicle is being operated upon a highway, unless that system is being operated to request assistance or warn of a hazardous situation.

Use of Horns
27001. (a) The driver of a motor vehicle when reasonably necessary to insure safe operation shall give audible warning with his horn.

Horns or Warning Devices
27000. (a) A motor vehicle, when operated upon a highway, shall be equipped with a horn in good working order and capable of emitting sound audible under normal conditions from a distance of not less than 200 feet, but no horn shall emit an unreasonably loud or harsh sound.

[Spank Daddy]

Regardless if you are pro noise or against. Most likely a law will be passed in the next few years that will require all cars to emit a certain dB level while running.
None of us know how loud the production model Aptera will be (except Steve), so I hope he reads this thread and makes the right call.

Otherwise we may be the ones who have to deal with this problem later.

:aptera: :sick0010: :aptera:

[Anthony]

Face it: The first quiet cars will hit more people per million miles traveled than the quiet cars of the future. Right now, people, without thinking, expect noisy cars. In the future (assuming all electric), people, without thinking, will expect silent cars. It's just the next few decades we have to worry about.
I feel the correct solution is not to pass laws, but put two controls in each quiet car; a momentary switch (a normal horn switch in the steering wheel) for the loud sound "honk", and an ON/OFF switch (like a high beam switch) for a soft sound "mmmm". The driver gets to decide when the soft sound is a good idea. I would play it in parking lots and residential neighborhoods until people stop relying on their ears to detect my presence.

[n_dawg]

In other news, CleanMPG has a thread about this exact topic (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14739).

[Spank Daddy]

I agree with Anothy, except for the on/off switch since it would put the liability on the driver to decide when to use it.
It is like the on/off switch for the passenger air bag in some cars. You don't want to forget to turn it on when you need it.

[JimmyDreams]

The responsibility to not hit someone crossing the street lies with both parties to a great extent. A good defensive driver EXPECTS the car at the intersection to pull out in front of them. A good defensive driver expects the pedestrian to step right out in front of them....etc...etc...etc.

Drive a motorcycle for a while. People will pull up to an intersection, look RIGHT at you, then pull out anyway. Why? Because while you THOUGHT they looked at you, they looked PAST you, didn't see you at all, and at that point, you (as the motorcycle driver) either planned for that very thing to happen or you're road-kill.

Anthony is right. laws aren't the answer because you can't legislate away stupid. Assume the person is deaf/blind/STUPID and be ready to swerve and/or stop. Me screaming obscenities at the person will be noise enough, believe me!!

;)

JimmyD

[Raiyn]

In other news, CleanMPG has a thread about this exact topic (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14739).
I like that WriConsult person

[daddio]

http://4wheeldrive.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=4wheeldrive&cdn=autos&tm=102&gps=59_1778_1020_500&f=00&tt=14&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.worldoflongmire.com/features/apes/planet6/TARZAN.WAV

[2258]

This is an informative video I found on YouTube concerning this topic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDsLhWPZxjI

Also a few other interesting videos can be found if you type in Plugin 2008. Andy Grove from Intel fame has over 30 minutes of speech time.

[Ceazar77]

I agree that like it or not they will likely pass laws (at least in CA) that require a vehicle traveling below a certian speed to emit a certian amount of noise.

An amplified speaker would handle both the horn and the low speed noise (I want mine to sound like the icecream truck :rolleye0003: ). If you could link the speaker to your bluetooth headset, it would also let you politely ask the person who is traveling slowly in the left lane to pull over so you can pass (that means you n dawg :tongue0011: ).