Aptera hybrid engine

[gg222]

Anyone know what engine will be used in hybrid? I was looking around the internet and found one that looks interesting. http://www.starrotor.com/Engine.htm

http://www.starrotor.com/images/eng.JPG

[n_dawg]

Anyone know what engine will be used in hybrid? I was looking around the internet and found one that looks interesting. http://www.starrotor.com/Engine.htm

<snip>

It will be a conventional gasoline engine, at 10 kW (13 hp).

I would love to see StarRotor technology in the Aptera, but they're just not there yet. From what I've read, the engine would have to be manufactured out of ceramics to work at the temperatures they're talking about. I hope it works out for them, but the lack of activity over the past year doesn't give me much hope, I'm afraid.

[garygid]

The Aptera site mentions a 12 kw generator for the 1h.
Presumably, that would require approximately a 16 hp
gas engine, if the generator could be used at full capacity.

[KarenRei]

12kW sounds like overkill. That'd mean driving nonstop at top speed (~85mph) the entire way. 55mph should only take 4.4kW. 10kW sounds reasonably sized.

What I'd really like (and which isn't going to happen :P) is a tiny ~1kW engine in my Typ-1e, displacing as little battery space as possible, which I then proceed to never use. I don't want a PHEV; I want a BEV with as much electric range as possible. The existence of the engine, however, should be enough to qualify the vehicle for the PHEV tax credit, which could be huge ;)

We really, really need to get our senators to amend that bill :P I've already emailed and written both of mine.

[garygid]

Are these the tax credits that you refer to?

The Ways and Means Committee in the House of Representatives
has apparently approved a bill proposed by Rep. Lloyd Doggett (D-TX)
that, if passed as is, would provide a tax credit of up to $6,000
to people who buy a PHEV (plug-in hybrid vehicle) that has
a battery capacity of at least 4 kWh.

The base credit would be $3,000 - for 4 or 5 kWh battery.
Then, and additional $250 for every kWh of battery capacity
over 5 kWh (up to a maximum of about 16 kWh).

Sen. Clinton has apparently said that she would like to see
a $10,000 tax credit for a PHEV.

Neither mention a strictly EV (electric vehicle).

[garygid]

In freeway travel, 70 mph is not unusual and often expected.

Assuming traveling at 55 mph consumes 80 watt-hours per mile
(55 x 80 = 4400 watt hours per hour = 4.4 kw) and a 85 percent
efficient charging system, the generator would need to
be capable of about 5.2 watts.

At 70 mph one might consume 130 wh per mile (up by roughly
the square of the speed). Then, 70 x 130 => 9100 watts,
requiring at least a 10.7 kw generator.

So, a 12 kw generator might have enough power left over
to slowly charge the batteries.

But, in addition to the "stock" 4 kWh batteries, I would like
to see an option for an additional 4 kWh, but it is not likely
that the 1500 pound unladen weight limit will allow it.

Maybe there will eventually be an option for a smaller
motor-generator that would allow the additional batteries.

[KarenRei]

Since I think people missed it before, I'm going to start a new thread about the tax credit. This is something everyone here should know about.

[garygid]

Along with any batteries that the "h" will have, the hybrid will need the gas
engine, a generator, a cooling system radiator, a 4-5 gallon gas tank,
and the catalytic converter (very hot) that Aptera mentions.

The cooling system radiator will need substantial air flow, but from/to where?

Will exhaust exit in front of the cabin (possible danger), or behind?

The catalytic converter must run very hot to do its job, but must not
burn up things nearby. Where could it be put?

Where should the gas tank go? Probably, up front is not very safe?

It seems unlikely that the "engine" will be all in one shove-in unit.

Where might Aptera find room for all of this, and where could they put
each component?

Not a trivial design issue. Any constructive ideas?

[evolutionmovement]

Front mounted engine, if possible (not sure where else it would fit anyway), small alloy radiator (air cooled engine would probably be too loud and dirty) with ducting for the cooling system exhaust air to exit at the hood/body meeting seam. Exhaust run along the bottom, up, and out between the taillights. The cat would have some kind of separating insulated metal box with cooling gills allowing some of the heat to be pulled into the airstream beneath the vehicle. Cats begin to operate at about 1200*F and aren't allowed to be used on boats by the USCG for fire safety. I would think they'd want to isolate the cat from the composite monocoque. They might even leave it open to the air underneath - I'm not sure what the law is, though I believe heat shields are required to prevent the combustion of dry grasses and such if the vehicle is parked over them.

[mikkowus]

are motorcycles required to use cats?

[rotus8]

are motorcycles required to use cats?
Yes, they are.

[BrianK]

Yes, they are.
How 'bout RV generators?

I wonder if this engine will even need a cat being that it's not a drive engine?

Are there any other series hybrids on the road?

edited to add: what about scooters - do they have to pass smog?

edited to add (again): While I know that motorcycles have to be smogged, it is difficult to find such info on the CA DMV website. In fact, there are numerous pages that state the opposite is true. Here's one (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vr/smogfaq.htm#BM2536) <-- note that on this page, hybrid cars are smog exempt. Maybe I'm reading this wrong - do you Pruis owners have to get smogged?

I wonder how big of an engine one would need to make the 12-16 hp required to keep the batteries charged. 150cc? anecdotally interesting (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/motorcycles/motorcycles.htm)

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

I'm wondering if the Typ-1h can have a cooling system like the Britten V1000/1100: it had the (small) radiator under the seat, and the air intake i on the nose of the fairing -- in the highest pressure zone. This pushed a small amount of high velocity air through the radiator, allowing it to be much smaller that if it was exposed directly to the air flow.
http://www.britten.co.nz/photos/images/sot2003b.jpg
The hot air exhausts out the back, through the "stinger" tube:
http://www.britten.co.nz/photos/images/sot2003a.jpg

This is a 166HP 1100cc engine, so a 13-16HP could be done, I should think?

[evolutionmovement]

Motorcycles, scooters, etc.:

http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2004/wp29grpe/TRANS-WP29-GRPE-47-inf13e.pdf

Couldn't find specific mentions of hybrid generators, but I cannot imagine them not having to meet the same standards as any other gasoline car engine with the possible exception of the test speed (in a series hybrid, they may want to test the emissions at the standard operating rpm of the generator vs. the usual test at multiple engine speeds).

Interestingly, I found the EPA in 1998 upped the weight limit of a 3-wheel motorcycle to 1749 lbs at behest of a manufacturer.

[BrianK]

Hi,

I'm wondering if the Typ-1h can have a cooling system like the Britten V1000/1100:
This is a 166HP 1100cc engine, so a 13-16HP could be done, I should think?
Well, that bike goes a hell of a lot faster than an aptera & would likely overheat if sitting in traffic and/or without any air flow around it, correct? That said, it probably makes a hell of a lot more power/heat as well. Hard to say.

I would like to think that a 16 hp generator could be air cooled?


Motorcycles, scooters, etc.:

http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2004/wp29grpe/TRANS-WP29-GRPE-47-inf13e.pdf

Couldn't find specific mentions of hybrid generators, but I cannot imagine them not having to meet the same standards as any other gasoline car engine with the possible exception of the test speed (in a series hybrid, they may want to test the emissions at the standard operating rpm of the generator vs. the usual test at multiple engine speeds).

Interestingly, I found the EPA in 1998 upped the weight limit of a 3-wheel motorcycle to 1749 lbs at behest of a manufacturer.
Good find, so there are regulations even for those vehicles that are less than 150cc. Interesting. Still, I wonder if the whole series hybrid idea will find its way through a loop hole as it never actually drives the wheels & isn't on much/most of the time.

Time will tell.

[garygid]

Remember that the Aptera (e or h) is a motorcycle (3 wheels).

Federal regulations currently define a motorcycle as
“any motor vehicle with a headlight, taillight, and stoplight and having:
two wheels, or three wheels and a curb mass less than or equal to 793
kilograms (1749 pounds)”

Current weight in CA is limited to 1500 pounds, but AB 2272 might change that.

The pollution requirements for motorcycles are fas less strict than for cars.

Aptera mentioned that they expected the "h" to be water cooled and
have a catalytic converter. With an inboard (enclosed) engine, cooling
will be a significant issue.

So, again, we wait to hear more from Aptera.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi Brian,

Yes, but the Aptera only has to run it's motor some of the time.

Aerodynamic principles do not change -- if a high pressure intake and a smooth duct get a small radiator to work -- and if the air flow is exhausted into the low pressure zone at the back of the Aptera, it can possibly help the drag, or at least not hurt it?

A fan could be used to blow air through the radiator, right? I can't think that exposing an air cooled engine directly to the outside could maintain a super low drag package.

[KarenRei]

Aerodynamic principles do not change -- if a high pressure intake and a smooth duct get a small radiator to work -- and if the air flow is exhausted into the low pressure zone at the back of the Aptera, it can possibly help the drag, or at least not hurt it?

Aptera already does that -- with cabin air. Whether they're linking in air from the motor, inverter, and so on into that system is unknown.

A fan could be used to blow air through the radiator, right?

Aptera does not have a radiator**. Electric motors don't put out that kind of heat. There are some small fans on the motor casing and the inverter, and probably on a few other components. It should be more like cooling a giant PC than like cooling a car's engine.

** -- Well, the heat pump for the passengers' AC will probably need a radiator. But the motor doesn't.

[garygid]

The Aptera hybrid will have a radiator of some sort.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi Karen,

We are speculating on the Typ-1h gasoline engine. :)

[evolutionmovement]

Ducting exhausting out the back would be best, but the conduit might be difficult to package. The waste heat air might be able to be dumped into a low pressure zone in front of the doors or something.

[JakesOnline]

I'll bet it will have an oil cooler. Much smaller, simpler design. They could take an existing air cooled engine and add an oil cooler very easily. Or, could they just use an air cooled engine? It would need fan for sure.

It will be interesting to see the design changes needed for the air intake/exhaust, cooling etc., since the Aptera seems to be hermetically sealed. It would probably float.

Do we know where the air intakes are for the climate control system?

[KarenRei]

Hi Karen,

We are speculating on the Typ-1h gasoline engine. :)

Aaah, sou desu ;)

[evolutionmovement]

An air-cooled engine would be loud and have higher emissions, not a problem if they stick to motorcycle standards, but probably a problem if they try to meet car requirements depending on how the EPA tests hybrid generators (it seems they're covering their bases as far as meeting car standards). The noise issue would be a bigger problem. Would the extra sound deadening weigh more than a cooling system? Cooling an air-cooled engine would be leave less options for ducting than a radiator also. But then again, who knows?

[gistmarrs]

I wouldn't rule out air cooled. In most cases the engine will only be running when the vehicle is moving fairly fast. Air cooled engines are less complicated and less expensive. Deutz air cooled engines are used in agriculture quite a bit where reliability is key. They also make an air cooled genset engine.

[JakesOnline]

Do we know where the air intakes are for the climate control system?

Found them. Are they big enough to cool batteries/engine? This is going to be a tiny engine.

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/782/airintakema9.jpg

[evolutionmovement]

The intake could open up inside to cool a radiator. I imagine that's a high pressure zone, so getting air into it should be easy. That could also be a fresh air vent for the interior.

[Apt3448]

That could also be a fresh air vent for the interior.
Indeed, you're looking at the air intake of the prototype typ 1-e, not at the 1-h

[Ardie3301]

Aptera doesn't seem to be getting too esoteric on the electric motor and battery setup, and I don't believe it will with the gasoline engine, either. They aren't going to design and build one. They're going to buy one off the shelf (more or less), marry it to an off-the-shelf generator (more or less), and design and have made an adapter to mate the two. And some electronics. Not to say that they aren't looking for the most efficient (and cost effective) solution to their needs.

If I had to guess, I'd guess the engine will be a Rotax. Hey, it is used in aircraft, and Fambro & co. seem to be stricken with modern aircraft technologies. Rotax makes a 1 cylinder 4-stroke liquid cooled 30 hp (22 kW) engine, and a 1 cylinder 2-stroke liquid cooled 13.6 hp (10 kW) engine. I don't think that getting them to make a more emission-friendly 1 cylinder 4-stroke liquid cooled 13.6 hp (10 kW) engine is out of the question. They have a proven track record for small liquid cooled engines for vehicle applications.

-- Ardie

[Apt3448]

a good picture of the air inlet: http://api.ning.com/files/Lt6dVHYlaLB9hWyfGrpUfQQRZMB-pRb*ZUruPcrjZMg5g8PesoS*VCvsFbWv93XjVE8C900ORT5wei nAmHEhfyQl2jV9uTJY/IMG_0455.JPG
note that you can really zoom in fairly closely. Still wondering what the logo thingy does...

[G-Jet]

the logo thingy lights up! one at the front, and one at the rear.

G

[Apt3448]

the logo thingy lights up! one at the front, and one at the rear.

That's really neat, I hadn't realized that yet. And then...that 's all it does? I mean, I will help me find my car in the parking garage... :)

[G-Jet]

Yes, perhaps you will help you find your car in the parking garage.

;)

G

[Apt3448]

OK, make that: 'IT will help me find my car etc' :ashamed0002:
And while you're being clever, tell me where the thingy in the back is located. You presumably don't mean the lit up ring around the charger?

[G-Jet]

it is right at the back corner, passenger side, upper surface.

G