The Ultimate Battery, EEStor's SuperCapacitor?

[c0mp13x]

2 years ago Treehugger reported work on a ultracapacitor design by a very secretive Texas company named EEStor. The technological claims of this company's product seemed to be the "Holy Grail" of battery wishes:

10 times the power storage, allowing 300-500 miles of vehicle range
1/10 the size and weight
1/2 the cost (if mass produced)
Rechargeable in minutes, rather than hours (think of pulling into a gas/charge station, done in minutes)
Millions of recharge cycles (easily the life of the vehicle)
Solid state technology vs chemical technology - no overheating, no chemical spills, less environmental impact

Treehugger 2006 EEStor Article (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/03/eestor_capacito_1.php)


Scientists and critics said EEStor's claims were impossible and it couldn't be done. Last year, Canadian electric vehicle manufacturer Zenn, bought exclusive rights to EEStor's technology for small and medium size vehicles. Nothing has surfaced yet, but a Zenn vehicle using EEStor technology is expected in 2008.

Today (1/10/08), US Defense contractor Lockheed Martin announced an agreement with EEStor for their technology, further verifying EEStor's claims. Zenn's stock took an immediate jump. Even if EEStor can bring to market a product that is half as efficient as their original claims, are we on the verge of a quantum leap in battery technology (UltraCapacitors)?

Lockheed Martin EEStor Agreement on GM Volt Website (http://www.gm-volt.com/2008/01/10/lockheed-martin-signs-agreement-with-eestor/#more-720)

Zenn EEStor Vehicle on Treehugger (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/01/big_news_eestor.php)

Battery Breakthrough? on TechnologyReview (http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/18086/)

[Aptera#965]

:eek:

Hey Steve Fambro, you reading this?? Give EEStor a call t-o-d-a-y! :p




Calling my stock broker now....

[c0mp13x]

Believe me, Steve knows all about EEStor with all of it's incredible claims. Anyone involved with vehicle battery science has read all about EEStor's technology.

The question now is, what will surface as a real product and can it even come close to the original claims. If this is truly the revelation in battery technology that EEStor predicts, I'm afraid Steve would be negotiating with Zenn, not EEStor, as they hold the rights to the technology in small and medium size vehicles.

Maybe we can offer to send Jim Carrey and Pamela Anderson back to the Canadians for the EEStor rights. They're both getting a bit long in tooth! :D


Update 2/10/08: ZENN does not have rights to EEStor's ultra caps for vehicles like the Aptera (http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=182)

[Aptera#965]

Lol, yeah whatever it takes!

They this technology will be useable in everything from pacemakers to energy weapons :eek:

What a breakthrough this could be.

[Yanquetino]

...we'll win the Kentucky Derby with this ultracapacitor. Let's hope that it really does fulfill all those claims. If so, it really will change everything.

For example, they state that the EEStor ultracapacitor "will also pack 10 times the punch of lead-acid batteries." Holy kilowatt! :eek: That would give the Typ-1e a range of 1,200 miles per charge! And reportedly with millions of recharges before there is any degradation in capacity. With that kind of performance, who would need a Typ-1h?

Shall we hold our breath...?

[in4mer]

honestly, there really isn't much of a business case for this vehicle with energy storage technology that finally comes to market without competing in cost, cost/cycle, self-discharge and specific energy density.

sure, i covet my delivery position just as much as anyone else. i want to see this thing in my garage, but only as a competitive, robust platform for emerging technology.

if someone is selling a car that has a higher Cd (co-efficient of drag), no, i won't want to buy it, but if i can go 400 miles on a charge, wait five minutes at a fill-station per charge (if i don't want to charge at home on off-peak power), i will buy that other car, and that's a market reality.

how can aptera ease the burden of my bleeding-edge technological crucifix? make it easy, obviously so, to change the power-storage/generation accoutrement without serious fuss. "want an eestor pack or two? sure, they will slide right in. don't need that hybrid powerplant any more? you can leave it in, or take it out, your choice. if you take it out, you can fit another eestor unit in its place." that sort of thing. sure, to take advantage of a huge change in voltage like that, the major load-bearing electronics would probably have to be replaced. unfortunately, that would be the cost of business for not putting that sort of thing in from the get-go.

which might just be a market reality of its own.

%nfsd

[LQUAN]

Forget about those unproven and unseen magical batteries. Toshiba announced that they will start selling their new Li-ion battery that would recharge to 90% capacity in 5 minutes in March 2008. The battery has a 5000-charge lifecycle. Say if you recharge it everyday, it will last for 13.5 years. In addition, their battery can discharge down to 0% with no problem - unlike current batteries such as NiHi and NiCad can only discharge down to 30%. Their cost is about the same as the current Li-ion. That awsome battery technology is here and ready for use. Don't look too far into the future. I want to see something that works and affordable in my life time. When I am ready to buy an Aptera, I hope to see these Toshiba batteries being used.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22240865/

[drivin98]

Forget about those unproven and unseen magical batteries. Toshiba announced that they will start selling their new Li-ion battery that would recharge to 90% capacity in 5 minutes in March 2008. The battery has a 5000-charge lifecycle. Say if you recharge it everyday, it will last for 13.5 years. In addition, their battery can discharge down to 0% with no problem - unlike current batteries such as NiHi and NiCad can only discharge down to 30%. Their cost is about the same as the current Li-ion. That awsome battery technology is here and ready for use. Don't look too far into the future. I want to see something that works and affordable in my life time. When I am ready to buy an Aptera, I hope to see these Toshiba batteries being used.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22240865/

That sounds great and all but the EESTOR would be a fraction of that price and weight, charge as fast or faster and last "forever". Production is scheduled to start this fall.
I'm hoping they Aptera can cut a deal with ZENN, get EESTOR tech, and with the savings, go for all in-wheel motor drive.

[KarenRei]

EEStor is a maybe. Toshiba is a "near definitely". Don't put all your eggs in the EEStor basket.

Re, investing in EEStor: Tough luck; they're privately held. They seem to hate attention rather than going for it, which is bizarre. Certainly not a sign of a scam, since scammers tend to want everyone and their grandmother to invest in them rather than turning away investors at the gate.

Re, capacity: it's about 2-2.5x better than existing li-ion, not 10. You're mixing up the EESU with the Stanford anode advance (which itself really isn't 10x; it's 10x better density at the anode, not the whole battery, and that 10x goes down to 8x after the first charge cycle. You're looking at 2-3x better density than existing li-ion without a corresponding cathode advance, and 7-8x if they can get a corresponding cathode advance. They expect it to take about 5 years for commercialization, and already have VCs banging at their door. Since the anode has tremendous surface area, expect rapid charge/discharge like the EESU, AltairNano, and Toshiba's SCiB.

As for EEStor's tech itself: it could go either way. I've seen a lot of people who really know what they're talking about write about it. Some have agreed with it and raised only minor, almost piddling issues. Some have raised major, "they got the fundamentals wrong" issues. I've seen some responses to those raised complaints suggesting how the complainer in turn got issues on, and so forth; it's out of my level. I will, however, say that having convinced both Kleiner-Perkins and Lockheed is a good checkmark in my book. And assuming that the tech *is* sound, I find it encouraging that Lockheed has stated that they were impressed by the facility's design and believe that it could rapidly scale up operations.

Anyways, my sincere hope is that Aptera either lets people choose what battery type goes in the vehicles (with corresponding stats for range and charge time), or that they'd at least make it so that the batteries subsystem can be replaced readily at some point in the future. I'd be willing to pay more for better batteries (esp. fast charge). I don't care if my house can't deliver the charge needed for a quick charge; charging stations are going to start springing up, thanks to Project Better Place's huge amount of capital, and I want to be able to go on long distance trips when they do.

[c0mp13x]

A new TechnologyReview EEStor article was posted today. Reports on the Lockheed Martin deal plus some info about ZENN's "first-in-line" status to receive EEStor's ultracapacitor this year.

TechnologyReview EEStor Update (http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/20090/)

[LQUAN]

Let's just say that EEStor can make their magical battery become a reality. How in the heck can anyone afford to buy a charger for a 20KW/h battery pack?. To charge a battery that can absorb that high level of current, you need a charger that can deliver. Such charger can only be commercial type, such as charging stations. Can you immaging the size of the coil in that charger for it to deliver several hundreds ampere? Such charger would be about the size of your car. And it will hum very loud when running. Our typical home outlet is only capable of 110VAC@15A. A 20KWatt/h battery pack requires about 12hours get a full charge at the rate our home outlet can deliver. If Steve thinks his car can be charged at home for about 6 hours, he must meant 220V/20A. Your typical vacuum cleaner draws about 12A - close to the max that your junction box can deliver. Remember how all your lights dim when that vacuum is running? A car charger that would make sense for home use should only deliver about 8A. At 8A, we are talking about 20 hours at least.

[KarenRei]

Not exactly, for a couple reasons.

1) 99% of the time, you don't need a fast charge. A slow charge overnight is plenty. Who needs a fast charger in your home? Fast charging is typically only needed on long trips, from service stations.

2) Even if you did need a fast charger at home, the EESU is 3500 volts, greatly reducing the amperage. And there's nothing to stop you from having *another* EESU-type unit, similar (small) size and similar (small) cost that trickle charges from your wall outlet and provides power all at once to your vehicle (i.e., *it* charges overnight). There would be essentially no noise. It'd also provide backup power for your house and potentially get you a discount on electricity if you can set it up to run load balancing for the grid.

[drivin98]

The way I envision it is that you have a home EESU which you can use to store your solar power and/or do load leveling work for your utility (for a fee) and you can also fast charge your vehicle EESU (and power tool batteries etc.).
If, of course, EESTOR actually comes through.

Pretty much the way KarenRei sees it.

[KarenRei]

Ooh, and the good news keeps coming. Add lithium vanadium oxide anodes to the list of upcoming long-range battery techs:

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/HONSHI/20080129/146549/

To recap:
Basic li-ion battery (graphite anode, LiCoO2 cathode): 160Wh/kg, 270Wh/l
EESU: As advertised, 340Wh/kg, 1600Wh/l
Silicon nanowire anode w/standard cathode: "Severalfold" overall improvement; let's say several equals three. 480Wh/kg, 810Wh/l
Vanadium cobalt oxide anode w/standard cathode: Let's assume Wh/kg scales the same as Wh/l. 441 Wh/kg, 745 Wh/l

Only one of them needs to work out, and EVs have the range of gasoline cars :)

[Yanquetino]

You must be an engineer, KarenRei! I'm glad someone here has that kind of expertise. These battery advances sound encouraging: I really hope that the predictions prove accurate. Isn't vanadium what Subaru intends to use in the lithium ion batteries for the G4e? I wonder how similar the formulas are. :confused:

Someday I hope that someone will plot some graphs showing comparisons between the various types of lithium ion batteries. I tend to be more of a visual learner (that's why I like the Aptera, right?), and need to see bars or lines or pies before the data sink in. :o

[KarenRei]

Hey -- you're right. I googled "Subaru" and "Vanadium", and sure enough, came up with this:

http://www.gizmag.com/go/8281/

Subaru's numbers aren't as good as those in the paper that I found, but that seems to me just a reflection of refinement of the manufacturing process.

I'm continually amazed at how fast lithium ion battery technology is advancing. Take heed, Aptera -- give us battery options and upgradeability! :) Rather than buy a new car in the future, I'd gladly simply replace the batteries or, if voltage changes dictate, upgrading the motor as well.

[drivin98]

Great links KarenRei. Some of those chemistries look promising as far as energy density goes. Cycle life didn't seem so great but hopefully that can be improved. I came across this other "outsider" a while back. It sounds great but who knows? http://www.polyplus.com/technology/laircell.htm

[KarenRei]

One thing to remember with cycle life: the more the energy density, the less the cycle life you need. Consider a battery that stores 50kWh and lasts for 900 cycles and one that stores 150kWh and lasts for only 300 cycles. Both work out to be the same amount of energy storage before they degrade too much -- 45MWh.

[c0mp13x]

The incredible claims of EEStor's ultra capacitor technology inched closer to reality as NEV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_electric_vehicle) manufacturer ZENN, announced the 1st implementation of EEStor technology with the Fall 2009 debut of their highway capable cityZENN.

If this revolution in electrical energy storage comes to fruition, EVs will take over the world surpassing all other vehicle power technologies. Gasoline, hybrid, hydrogen and LNG will all be obsolete. Certainly this is an announcement that the Aptera team cannot ignore...

ZENN's 1st generation specs for the EEStor vehicle:
250 mile range
80 mph highway capable
5 minute charge time

EEStor powered ZENN (http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=837653)

:eek:

[3-4-me]

ZENN's 1st generation specs for the EEStor vehicle:
250 mile range
80 mph highway capable
5 minute charge time

EEStor powered ZENN (http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=837653)

:eek:

Wow! Those are incredible claims. We can only hope they come through, and Aptera is able to get in on it.

[futura]

Let's recap:
The Auto XPrize just starts.
Tesla starts production (not with EEStor).
GM tools up for Chevy Volt (not with EEStor).
The pressure's on for poorly funded EV and E-storage companies.
ZENN (formerly "Feel Good Car") needs to prop up its stock and makes its annual empty promise (check 2006 & 2007 for similar).
I have nothing against EEStor (they do produce a fancy Barium Titanate powder) except they seem happy with secrecy and very low yield laboratory curiosities. Extraordinary claims require... still waiting. Hope I'm wrong about them (really) but not holding my breath.
I hope Aptera doesn't get distracted and make some exclusive deal with one of these companies that can't produce anything but press releases. They seem pretty sharp, hopefully they'll treat the Battery/Ultracap device like computer companies treat memory... as a commodity.
A123 seems very solid (I have some DeWalt LiFePO batteries...outstanding cycle time). Heck even Valence looks to be breaking out of its two decades of investor disappointment by going into volume production.
I'll be interested to see what Aptera decides wrt the batteries (e & h may be diff).
Cheers.

[c0mp13x]

Several previous articles have indicated that the revolutionary ultracapacitor that EEStor is trying to develop, has the capability to "ramp up to production very quickly".

As much as the claims of EEStor's ultracapacitor technology seem like fantasy and most of us wonder whether it will ever become reality... this new quote from ZENN's CEO surfaces:

...Zenn's Ian Clifford has visited EEStor's upcoming production facility in Cedar Park, Texas on several occasions. "To be very clear, this is not a lab that they are building. It is a full, state of the art production facility that is nearing completion, and we remain very pleased with their progress," he boasts.

Full article from 4/20/08: NaturalNews reports on EEStor (http://www.naturalnews.com/023063.html)



http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2035/2440620693_a4afccb2f2.jpg

Aptera Battery Test Area with twin Maxwell
brand ultracapacitors bottom right (in blue)

;)

[KarenRei]

Yeah, IF they can pull it off, I can easily envision Aptera switching (they'll need to deal with the high voltage, though). They wouldn't have to work through Zenn because Aptera's a three wheeler and Zenn only has the rights to four wheelers.

If.

About their technology, that doesn't really concern me too much. It seems reasonable, from what I've read about the subject. What gets me is how cheaply they sold the rights to Zenn. I've been wracking my brain trying to figure out why they'd do that.

[LQUAN]

Good observation. What is the relationship between EEStor and Maxwell? Are their products similar?

[c0mp13x]

...What is the relationship between EEStor and Maxwell? Are their products similar?
They are potential competitors in the ultracapacitor market. When/if EEStor has a real product, Maxwell will be their direct competitor.

Maxwell is (one of) the current leader in ultracapacitor manufacturing and Aptera is currently testing their devices as shown in the picture above. I have read of Maxwell representatives being very skeptical that EEStor could successfully manufacture their "miracle" ultracapacitor. I guess we'll all see soon...

;)

[drivin98]

Good observation. What is the relationship between EEStor and Maxwell? Are their products similar?

If EEStor pans out, Maxwell is history.

[hyo silver]

I think the potential for capacitors instead of batteries is huge. The application I'm most interested in is bicycles. Though electric bicycles exist, they're too slow and heavy for anything but short distance commuting by people who've yet to develop their legs and lungs. At 10% of the weight, capacitors offer all of the advantages - serious speed and powerful regenerative brakes - without the trunk full of rocks that craps out part way up the hill.

[oracle]

So yes, it's been a while since the claims were made, and since then...nothing.

Im wondering how the claims can he taken seriously in the first place, while not even having a halfway functioning prototype.

[Dilekz]

I don't believe eestor... it's just a lie.

How could this be true. A capacitor can't hold a charge longer then a few seconds. :) You want to jump 1200 miles in few seconds? wtf.

Capacitors are WAYYYY different then battery's

When capacitors let there load go.. the volt's drop just like the amp's
Capacitors lose there loads almost directly.
Ultra capacitors are just smaller capacitors with the same amount of fahrad.
I do not say that I am not a fan of capacitors... :) it's even a DUTCH invention!

I just say: it will never happen. We should look further. Like those new lithium battery's that can get cycles like 10k to 20k.

If the aptera could make 120 miles on a charge.. and the battery lasts 15k.
Your car battery could last 15 000 cycles x 120 miles = 1.800.000 miles.
I haven't seen a car with that many miles on it...

I don't care if the battery and car is a little bit expensive. If you have those super battery's that can go 500 miles and have 2 million miles life span.

I would bet on it that eestor is just... nothing :)

[LQUAN]

I don't believe eestor... it's just a lie.

How could this be true. A capacitor can't hold a charge longer then a few seconds. :) You want to jump 1200 miles in few seconds? wtf.

Capacitors are WAYYYY different then battery's


I am totally agreed with you on the way capacitor work. If EEStor meant for their mysterious invention to hold charge like battery, they should call it battery - not capacitor. What you described is the precise manner capacitor works. Capacitor almost has no current limit. If there is a bridge for it to discharge, it will dump everything like crazy. How do you limit current discharge by capacitor? With resistors or current controllers? Then the capacitor will dump everything onto the resistors or current controllers. And like you said, if you dump everything onto the motor and if the motor doesn't get burn, you will experience warp speed in your EV.:D

[gg222]

I'm not an electrician, but could you direct some of the electricity to engine and the rest go into another capacitor. It would be kind of like the electricity teater-totering between 2 capacitors and the engine using what it needs.

[LQUAN]

It would be ideal if we can teater-toter electricity between 2 capacitors. We would have electricity for free. Unfortunately, 2 capacitors will have to reach equilibrium in a very short time. Capacitors are electrical dampeners by definition.

[gg222]

... and that's why I'm not an electrician. :) (But I do like the 1200 mile in a few seconds)

[KarenRei]

I am totally agreed with you on the way capacitor work. If EEStor meant for their mysterious invention to hold charge like battery, they should call it battery - not capacitor.

But it's not a battery -- it's a capacitor. What makes it different is that it uses a "High K" dielectric -- orders of magnitude greater permittivity than conventional dielectrics. The question some people have raised is that they often lose permittivity with increasing voltage. I've also seen some studies that suggest tiny layers can prevent this. We'll have to see what EEStor can pull off.

What you described is the precise manner capacitor works. Capacitor almost has no current limit. If there is a bridge for it to discharge, it will dump everything like crazy. How do you limit current discharge by capacitor?

Capacitors do not have to discharge quickly, any more than batteries do. A capacitor in circuit with a resistor follows I=V/R, just like a battery. The voltage changes dramatically as it discharges, though; it's exponential decay, not linear.

[c0mp13x]

EEStor update in an interview with ZENN CEO, Ian Clifford.

From the GM Volt site: EXCLUSIVE: CEO of ZENN Motor Company on EEStor, EEStor Storage Units, cityZENN, and ZENNergy Drive Systems (http://gm-volt.com/2008/06/01/exclusive-ceo-of-zenn-motor-company-on-eestor-eestor-storage-units-cityzenn-and-zennergy-drive-systems/)

:happy0025:

[Sloopy]

electricity teater-totering

I hope we are allowed a little fun on this forum. I had fun naming an Aptera (fell out of my chair). I think a teater-toter is a ladies' underthing.

[KarenRei]

He focuses a lot on the old lithium scarcity myth and gets a number of other li-ion facts wrong (such as claiming nobody has ever produced a 20kWh pack, when Teslas are rolling out with 53kWh packs), but apart from that, a good read. Once again, we'll have to see whether EEStor can deliver.

Also, did anyone else catch the "end of this year" comments? Weren't they supposed to deliver at the end of *last* year? And then again this summer?

[tvillars]

Here is a link (http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/2008/05/interview-with-richard-weir-ceo-of.html) to an interview with Richard Weir from last week. The interviewer is dragging out the post so he can milk it for several days worth of posting but it is new stuff and worth a read if you are interested in EESTOR.

And one other interesting thing, I tried to buy some ZENN stock and found I couldn't do it because the US SEC has a rule that after a public offering of a foreign stock, someone with residence in the US can't buy that stock for 40 days. ZENN had a public offering on May 30th so I'm locked out until July 8th. It will be interesting to see what happens to ZENN's stock if EESTOR actually makes an announcement in the next 2 to 4 week.

[3-4-me]

I hope we are allowed a little fun on this forum.
You're perfectly welcome to have fun here.:jumping0007:
I think a teater-toter is a ladies' underthing.
I think you mean teater-toater.

[Dolphyn]

And one other interesting thing, I tried to buy some ZENN stock and found I couldn't do it because the US SEC has a rule that after a public offering of a foreign stock, someone with residence in the US can't buy that stock for 40 days. ZENN had a public offering on May 30th so I'm locked out until July 8th. It will be interesting to see what happens to ZENN's stock if EESTOR actually makes an announcement in the next 2 to 4 week.
Here's a stock chart: http://www.profitspi.com/stock-chart/znnmf.aspx
It's clearly been more than 40 days since the initial public offering, so if the rule is 40 days, the stock should be available to us now. But, I'm under the impression that there are other reasons why we Americans cannot buy it.

[futura]

I have no trouble placing an order via Ameritrade or Etrade for Zenn (symbol ZNNMF).
Of course, it begs the question why? This remains a pretty risky stock. About 25000 shares traded today between $4 and $5. The company's reported revenue (2nd qtr) is below $1M. How they managed to boost EESTOR with a $2.5M investment is surprising/suspicious.
There is a ZENN car in my neighborhood though. If I can collar that person I will try to get a test drive and a look under the hood.

[tvillars]

I have no trouble placing an order via Ameritrade or Etrade for Zenn (symbol ZNNMF).
Do you live in the US? Were you able to execute the trade? I was on the phone with e*Trade for almost 30 minutes before they told me about the rule on public offerings for a foreign based companies.

How they managed to boost EESTOR with a $2.5M investment is surprising/suspicious.
ZENN was able to invest about 6 months before venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleiner_Perkins_Caufield_%26_Byers) got involved with EESTOR. ZENN owns 3.8% of EESTOR but the main value for ZENN is the marketing rights
Under its Technology Agreement with EEStor, Inc., ZENN holds certain worldwide exclusive licenses for EEStor's batteries for new small and medium-sized low speed and highway capable vehicles (up to 1,400 kgs curb weight). ZENN also holds worldwide exclusive rights for EEStor's batteries for the conversion of any used internal combustion passenger vehicle to electric drive. The Technology Agreement is in good standing. (http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=648733)

There is a ZENN car in my neighborhood though. If I can collar that person I will try to get a test drive and a look under the hood.
I doubt that will tell you much as what's possible with EESTOR is nothing like what is available today.

[KarenRei]

It's not the technology in particular that I find suspicious. It's how easily EEStor gave up exclusive rights in perpetuity. For the life of me, I can't come up with a good explanation for that.

[Dolphyn]

Confirmed, I bought some shares of ZNNMF via TDAmeritrade this morning without any issues ... although I do agree it's a risky stock. (I'm in California.)

[tvillars]

It's not the technology in particular that I find suspicious. It's how easily EEStor gave up exclusive rights in perpetuity. For the life of me, I can't come up with a good explanation for that.

I don’t know much about how these deals are typically put together, but what little I do know it’s unusual for ZENN to only got 3.8% for a 2.5 million investments. Do the math and that gave EESTOR a theoretical market cap of $65 million which is a lot for a company that had no major VC money invested at the time.

<WILD_ASS_GUESSING>
My best guess is the deal was set up to play to the each individual’s strength. Ian Clifford (ZENN CEO) wants to sell EVs but is having a hard time because existing battery technology is limiting performance to just a hair above crappy. Richard Weir (CEO EEStor) just wants to sell EESUs and wants others to handle the messy details of producing an end product people can actually use. The deal as structured allows both parties to stay focused on their primary business and that is not a bad thing.
</WILD_ASS_GUESSING>

[nokaoimarine]

A Seattle area company, AFS Trinity Power, supposedly has working prototypes of a modified hybrid using batteries and superconductors. Looks like a great enhancement to existing battery use technology. Any comments?

[garygid]

see http://www.afstrinity.com/
Yahoo's Good Morning shows a video clip.

[tvillars]

Confirmed, I bought some shares of ZNNMF via TDAmeritrade this morning without any issues ... although I do agree it's a risky stock. (I'm in California.)

I guess it all depends on which e*Trade persorn I talk because "now" there was no problem placing and filling the order.

Thanks for the info as I probably wouldn't have tried a second time.

Also here is a link to a pod cast (http://www.evcast.com/members/evcast/blog/VIEW/00000001/00000009/EVcast-4-Interview-with-ZENN-Motors-CEO-Ian-Clifford.html#00000009)(06/03/08) with Ian Clifford ZENN's CEO where they talk a lot about EESTOR.

[Dolphyn]

Thanks for that link, great interview!

[tvillars]

I’m a lay person in this space who’s been reading about EESTOR. I’m afraid I’ve picked up just enough of the terminology to ask what are likely to be silly questions, so if the questions phrasing are nonsensical please feel free to say so.

Since EESTOR has concentrated on making a better dielectric could improvements to the plate, such as nanotubes to increase the total surface area, also be incorporated into a later versions of the Energy Storage Units?

Since Wier came out of IBM’s disk drive manufacturing division, are there any manufacturing techniques for disk drives that carry over to making ultracapacitors? For example could a method for making a drive’s platter be used in making a multilayered capacitor?

[JoeReal]

Here is another gray area between being a dense battery and an ultracapacitor at the same time, using of course, nanotechnology:


http://web.mit.edu/mitei/images/sidebar-saying-goodbye2-sm.jpg
This “forest” of carbon nanotubes grown on an aluminum electrode is key to the high energy-storage capacity of the new ultracapacitor. Each nanotube is about 250 micrometers long—about twice as long as the human hair is thick.

Researchers at MIT are developing a new device that has the potential to hold as much energy as a conventional battery but could be recharged in seconds rather than hours, would last almost indefinitely, and won’t mind the cold. The device could prove the first economically viable alternative to today’s battery. It could one day yield a practical all-electric car and provide electricity storage critical to using intermittent energy sources such as solar and wind.

Just about everything that runs on batteries—cell phones, laptops, electric cars, missile-guidance systems—would be improved with a better energy-storage device. The battery continues to improve, but its basic concept hasn’t changed much since it was developed by Alessandro Volta in the 19th century.

click here for the complete article:
http://web.mit.edu/mitei/research/spotlights/saying-goodbye.html

[iwannaptera]

I’m a lay person in this space who’s been reading about EESTOR. I’m afraid I’ve picked up just enough of the terminology to ask what are likely to be silly questions, so if the questions phrasing are nonsensical please feel free to say so.

Hmmmm, maybe?

Since EESTOR has concentrated on making a better dielectric could improvements to the plate, such as nanotubes to increase the total surface area, also be incorporated into a later versions of the Energy Storage Units?

Hmmmm, maybe.

Since Wier came out of IBM’s disk drive manufacturing division, are there any manufacturing techniques for disk drives that carry over to making ultracapacitors? For example could a method for making a drive’s platter be used in making a multilayered capacitor?

Hmmmm, maybe!
:D

[oldpecan]

Do you think EEStor entered into its agreement with ZENN 'because' ZENN is outside of the U.S.A.?

btw What are the best sites for keeping up with EEStor? thanks.

[tvillars]

Do you think EEStor entered into its agreement with ZENN 'because' ZENN is outside of the U.S.A.?

No. Back in 2004 EEStor was looking for VC money and probably needed some purchase agreements to show some one was actually willing to buy their product. ZENN being one of the few EV manufactures in 2004 had more to do with it than the company being in Canada. I'm sure Ian Clifford had no idea what a gold mine this agreement could turn out to be.

btw What are the best sites for keeping up with EEStor? thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor
http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com
http://www.zenncars.com/

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Here's a promising improvement in lithium ion batteries:

Nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing ones (http://www.physorg.com/news117212815.html)

Has there been any other updates on this (hopeful) innovation?

I Googled "nanowire lithium ion battery" and got some good info:

http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2008/january9/nanowire-010908.html
http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/12/21/gm-voltcom-interview-with-dr-cui-inventor-of-silicon-nanowire-lithium-ion-battery-breakthrough/
http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/19/stanfords-nanowire-battery-leapfrogs-li-ion/
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071219103105.htm
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4237756.html

[JoeReal]

Hello,

Here's a promising improvement in lithium ion batteries:

Nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing ones (http://www.physorg.com/news117212815.html)

Has there been any other updates on this (hopeful) innovation?

I Googled "nanowire lithium ion battery" and got some good info:

http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2008/january9/nanowire-010908.html
http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/12/21/gm-voltcom-interview-with-dr-cui-inventor-of-silicon-nanowire-lithium-ion-battery-breakthrough/
http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/19/stanfords-nanowire-battery-leapfrogs-li-ion/
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071219103105.htm
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4237756.html


While it can hold ten times the power, it's ten years away from commercialization.
Also the battery component volume will expand as it is charged. But hope that the weight doesn't increase much.

[JoeReal]

While it can hold ten times the power, it's ten years away from commercialization.

I'd be very happy to be absolutely wrong about this! I really hope this can be done quickly. We have tremendous infrastructure to mass produce anything if we lose all the patent attorneys.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello Joe,

The Wikipedia entry, though brief, adds a couple of details:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanowire_battery

It "levels out" at 8X storage, and it requires an equivalent cathode improvement.

They mention a five year development to get to production...

[JoeReal]

thanks Neil! The interview at GM-Volt website is interesting. The GM-Volt website though is not officially endorsed by GM. It is made by GM fans, of which I am also a member.

[c0mp13x]

JoeReal posted a EEstor update in this thread: http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=1138

Thanks JoeReal, the news is so significant that I felt it should be referenced in this old EEstor thread too...


Original article link with ZENN picture: Electric car maker poised to shock auto industry
(http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=613448)

Electric car maker poised to shock auto industry

Nicolas Van Praet, Financial Post
Published: Wednesday, June 25, 2008

Gilles Allard, production chief of Zenn Motor Co., still visits his local gas station despite the fact he drives one of the company's gas-less electric cars. As he says, he needs his milk and cigarettes.

Mr. Allard is a busy guy these days. His small team is building Zenn cars at a factory just north of Montreal at a rate of two to three vehicles a day and counting. Every one of them is being shipped to dealers in the United States for willing buyers. They're still illegal on most Canadian roads.

Like other companies selling alternative transportation in an oil-dependent world, Toronto-based Zenn has suddenly become a sexy stock. Its shares have gained 81% over the past three months on the Toronto Venture Exchange despite the fact the company has yet to post a profit.

Thing is, Zenn could soon be much more than sexy. It could be downright disruptive, turning the automotive industry on its head.

Sometime over the next several weeks, a privately-held and ultra-secretive company named EEStor Inc. based in Cedar Park, Texas is expected to release the results of independent third-party testing of its electrical energy storage unit, which aims to replace the electrochemical batteries we now use in everything from hybrid cars to laptop computers. EEStor says its system, combining battery and ultracapacitor technology and based on modified barium titanate ceramic powder, could power a car for 400 kilometres with regular performance. It claims the unit would charge in a few minutes and weigh less than 10% of current lead-acid batteries for the same cost.

If it is proven to work, EEStor, and its equity and business partners, including Zenn and U.S. defence contractor Lockheed Martin Corp., will have a technology that could change the transportation industry, with implications for renewable energy and any sector that needs electrical energy storage technology.

Officials with Lockheed, which earlier this year bought exclusive rights to use EEStor's power system for military purposes, have said the technology "could lead to energy independence for the warfighter." Officials with Zenn, which bought exclusive worldwide rights to the system for vehicles weighing up to 1,400 kg, say they believe it is the "holy grail" of electric storage systems.

EEStor has said it expects its technology to be commercially ready within six months.

"This is not small potatoes here. If this works it really changes the transportation sector," says Massimo Fiore, an analyst with Versant Partners in Montreal. He rates Zenn a "speculative buy" with a one year price target of $6.50.

"You'd have a very strong decoupling from oil," he said. "[Zenn] could have a very big return for investors. But it is still speculative."

Rick Welty of investment advisory firm Welty Capital Management in LaFayette, Calif. recently discussed Zenn on Bloomberg TV. "The caveat is the upside-downside potential" for the company's stock, he said. "If it doesn't work, it probably goes to $1 a share. If it does work, it could be $15 or $20 or far higher."

Zenn's future growth is inextricably linked to EEStor's success or failure. It holds a 3.8% equity position in EEStor, a strategic investment allowing Zenn to participate in the commercialization of its technology in non-automotive applications like aerospace. And its next generation of planned cars, called the cityZenn, will trade in the company's current lead-acid batteries for EEStor's storage unit.

A commercially viable power source by EEStor would boost the maximum speed of its cars from 40 km/h to 120 km/h, take them from the backroads to the highways, and thrust Zenn from a small company making niche electric vehicles into the global automotive mainstream.

Zenn and EEStor are not alone in the hunt for electric supremacy. Several major and minor companies are working on making better-performing batteries for all-electric and hybrid cars. General Motors Corp.'s Volt car, powered with lithium-ion batteries, is perhaps the most high-profile electric vehicle planned. But Toyota Motor Corp., Nissan, Mitsubishi, Renault-Nissan, and others have outlined plans for electric cars coming to market in North America as soon as 2010.

The challenge for all is developing a battery that delivers enough power and range for everyday transportation at a consistent quality for mass-production, said Eric Fedewa, an analyst for CSM Worldwide in Grand Rapids, Mich. "It comes down to ultimately what is it going to cost the manufacturers to produce that technology in the vehicle. And will consumers accept that cost?"

EEStor certainly has its skeptics. They argue scientists and engineers have been trying to make a similar power unit for 20 years without success. And history has not been kind to some technology hopefuls such as Ballard Power Systems.

But it also has a powerful venture capital backer, Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, with a pretty good knack for picking winners. Kleiner was an early investor in both Google and Amazon.

"If for some reason EEStor is delayed, we will continue to use the best technologies available," Zenn founder and chief executive Ian Clifford acknowledges. "But ultimately, to get 400 kilometres of range, the ability to recharge in minutes, low costs, and the ability to operate in extreme climates – all of those benefits, those come from EEStor. Those are the game-changing specifications."

:happy0025:

[c0mp13x]

Another Chapter in the EEStory: http://tyler.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2008/8/5/3826346.html

Another chapter in EEStory

by Tyler on Tue 05 Aug 2008 11:47 PM EDT

A short story on EEStor appeared today on MIT's Technology Review site. A few thoughts to walk away with:

1) The company has certified that its equipment and procedures can make the materials it needs to go into high-volume production of its ceramic ultracapacitor.

2) It took longer than expected to get to this stage because EEStor raised the bar on its production standards so it could develop production materials for mission-critical applications -- i.e. military stuff.

3) Voltage breakdown concerns have been addressed, primarily thanks to the alumina that coats and seals the composition-modified barium titanate.

4) Beyond materials and powder production, the rest -- i.e. component and EESU manufacturing -- is relatively simple, at least compared to disk drive manufacturing.

5) EEStor is also having serious talks with solar and wind companies regarding the use of EESUs in grid-scale storage applications.


Now, some other stuff that Weir said during an interview that wasn't in the Tech Review article:

6) Weir is keeping the name EEStor, despite rumours it might change. He said the brand recognition now is too great to let it go.

7) Weir's relationship with Lockheed Martin runs deeper than first thought. "Who's best at certifying what we've got? Lockheed," said Weir. "They've seen our factory. I've been working with them since 2001."

8) It seems that Lockheed may be an investor in EEStor. I come to this conclusion by this statement: "We told our investors we can do it better, and we did." Weir made this statement when explaining the reason why they took an extra year to meet its certification milestones for "advanced technologies," such as military applications. Not sure ZENN or Kleiners, the only known investors, have demanded such higher standards. Obviously, if Lockheed and its demands are the source of this delay, then it's reasonable to assume its partnership with EEStor is also in the form of an investment. "We fully plan to do a major expansion on this to meet anybody's requirement as we go forward," he said.

9) Weir said the production lines will be modular and highly robotic.

10) A corporate Web site will go up once the components are being manufactured.

11) He hinted that he was expecting competitors to challenge EEStor, and that his advantage will be the ability to move quickly and stay several steps ahead. "If we get challenged, we'll move to scale up," he said. "We have a lot of knowledge built up."

I truly got the sense that Weir is going to start talking more about this company, probably come this fall. But I also got the sense EEStor is more heavily involved with Lockheed than originally thought -- i.e. there's a big focus here on developing military applications using the technology. He called what he's working on as "Manhattan II." It makes sense, given that many great technological innovations have trickled down from work originally done at the military level -- GPS, the Internet, nuclear power.

Anyway, food for thought. Thanks, Dick, for the update.
:happy0025:

[c0mp13x]

EEStor update: permitivity certification results exceed expectations by 21%. Zenn stock takes a jump:

http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/623621

http://sev.prnewswire.com/computer-electronics/20090422/DA0371522042009-1.html

Zenn gets a jolt

Electric car maker's shares soar after partner hails test results as 'huge milestone' in groundbreaking battery it's developing

Apr 24, 2009 04:30 AM
Tyler Hamilton
Energy Reporter

Shares in electric-car maker Zenn Motor Co. soared as high as 60 per cent yesterday after strategic partner EEStor Inc. announced it had reached a "huge milestone" in the development of what many are calling a game-changing battery technology.

The next step, said Zenn chief executive Ian Clifford, is the delivery of a production-grade prototype that will be tested as a power source for a long-range, highway-speed electric car. "Our contract states we get the first one off the (production) line," he said.

Toronto-based Zenn is one of the first investors in secretive EEStor and holds a minority stake in the Austin, Tex.-based venture, which is trying to commercialize a cutting-edge ultracapacitor-based battery capable of storing immense amounts of energy at a fraction of the cost of traditional chemical batteries. EEStor disclosed yesterday it has received third-party certification that materials used in its ultracapacitor have "met and/or exceeded" all claims of electrical storage capability, or "permittivity".

"EEStor feels this is a huge milestone which opens the advancement of key products and services in the electrical energy storage markets of today," the privately held company stated. "The automotive and renewable energy sectors are a few of the key markets that would benefit greatly."

EEStor CEO Dick Weir declined further comment. But Clifford said Zenn and other cars powered by the device – called an Electrical Energy Storage Unit, or EESU – will benefit from long range, quick recharging and longer storage life than competing batteries.

Zenn, which has worldwide exclusive rights to use the EESU in any vehicle under 1,400 kilograms, has so far paid EEStor $1.3 million (U.S.) out of $2.5 million it's expected to pay as product milestones are met.

Paradigm Capital analyst J. Marvin Wolff said Zenn has 30 days to study the permittivity data before deciding to proceed with a $700,000 payment to EEStor. It can also exercise an option to increase its equity stake to 10.5 per cent. Delivery of an EESU triggers another $500,000 instalment.

Wolff pointed out that the permittivity achieved was 21 per cent better than EEStor's expectations. "It means the EESU that EEStor will have will be a much higher performance 'battery' than previously thought," he said.

Zenn shares closed up nearly 50 per cent, or $1.71 (Canadian), at $5.16 on the TSX Venture Exchange yesterday. The stock has more than doubled in five trading days.

"The only way to publicly play this is through Zenn," said Wolff, who raised his one-year target price to $10.90 from $5.50 while maintaining a "speculative buy" rating.

On Tuesday, the Investment Industry Regulatory Organization of Canada asked Zenn to comment on the sudden share rise, which the company said it could not explain.

EEStor may be a stealthy operation but the claims around its energy-storage technology have been debated on the Internet, where blogs have emerged to track its progress. A California filmmaker is also doing an indie documentary on the "EEStor allure."

Some call EEStor a scheme designed to rip off investors, while others wonder why a company with such a world-changing technology would sign an exclusive agreement with a small maker of low-speed electric cars in Toronto.

Even if EEStor's technology is sound, many still doubt the company will be able to mass produce its storage devices at the quality, safety level and cost required to have a major impact. If, however, EEStor is successful, its technology has the potential to radically transform the transportation, power delivery and mobile-electronics markets.

"Every step toward commercialization we see the interest heighten dramatically," said Clifford.

Zenn plans to use an EEStor storage unit to build a vehicle called the CityZenn that will have a top speed of 125 kilometres an hour and a range of up to 400 kilometres on a single charge. The technology could also be used to economically store massive amounts of clean energy from wind and solar facilities and then discharge the power when needed, putting renewable energy on equal footing with fossil-fuel and hydroelectric generation.

EEStor's credibility got a boost in January 2008 when U.S. military contractor Lockheed Martin announced an agreement that gave it worldwide exclusive rights to use and sell the EESU in military and homeland security applications.

Lockheed has even filed a patent for a lightweight soldier's battle vest that could contain an EESU and be used to recharge mobile electronics. Sources, however, say Lockheed has not invested in EEStor, despite rumours circulating the Internet.

"We're encouraged to see the progress EEStor is making on its product," said a Lockheed official who didn't want to be named but called the EESU a "game-changing" technology.

Boosting EEStor's credibility even further is an investment from venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers.
:happy0025:

[IamIan]

EEStor update: permitivity certification results exceed expectations by 21%. Zenn stock takes a jump:

http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/623621

http://sev.prnewswire.com/computer-electronics/20090422/DA0371522042009-1.html

:happy0025:

Too bad it is just Esstor claiming they have 3rd party confirmation ... and not actually a 3rd party giving confirmation.

Both of those linked articles site Esstor as the source... so Esstor is claiming that Esstor has 3rd party confirmation ... sorry ... for me ... not good enough... 3rd party confirmation is exactly what it sound like ... confirmation from a 3rd party... until the 3rd party themselves publishes a confirmation ... we still have nothing more than Esstor making one more claim on their own.

[KarenRei]

TRI would contradict them in a heartbeat if that wasn't accurate; their reputation is on the line. And TRI is never going to "publish a confirmation"; that's not their business. Their business is to do testing that companies pay them to do, not to do PR for said companies.

Don't make too much out of this; they're only claiming permittivity, not permittivity at a high voltage.

[IamIan]

TRI would contradict them in a heartbeat if that wasn't accurate; their reputation is on the line. And TRI is never going to "publish a confirmation"; that's not their business. Their business is to do testing that companies pay them to do, not to do PR for said companies.

Don't make too much out of this; they're only claiming permittivity, not permittivity at a high voltage.

While true... that even if the claims pan out that it still doesn't prove Esstor will work...

The announcement from Esstor does not say that TRI did the confirmation ... it specifically sites Dr. Edward G. Golla in particular ... it does say that Dr. Edward G. Golla works at TRI... and I admit it is likely that if this was done ... that TRI might be involved... but the Esstor claim is just indicating Dr. Edward G. Golla specifically and individually.

Also...

Lack of a denial is not the same as confirmation.

Esstor is not a 3rd party... so it doesn't matter what they say or how they say it... nothing Esstor says about themselves will ever be a 3rd party...

In order to have confirmation from a 3rd party ... the 3rd party has to give the confirmation ... to date ... that hasn't happened...

The best we have so far here... is a second hand account from Esstor.

Second hand accounts aren't good enough for a court of law ... or for scientific confirmation ... and they aren't good enough for me.

[KarenRei]

The announcement from Esstor does not say that TRI did the confirmation ... it specifically sites Dr. Edward G. Golla in particular ... it does say that Dr. Edward G. Golla works at TRI... and I admit it is likely that if this was done ... that TRI might be involved... but the Esstor claim is just indicating Dr. Edward G. Golla specifically and individually.

Come on; you're picking at straws. Ed Golla is TRI's lab director. Nobody is going to read that and think that Golla did this in his garage. Including TRI. Nobody involved is an idiot.

[IamIan]

Come on; you're picking at straws. Ed Golla is TRI's lab director. Nobody is going to read that and think that Golla did this in his garage. Including TRI. Nobody involved is an idiot.

Like I've said ... I think it is a safe assumption ... do conclude TRI is involved ... but that is not the actual claim being made by Esstor... The claim is what it is... and maybe I am just picking at straws ... or maybe I am just personally to picky... but a 2nd hand account from someone with questionable credentials like Esstor ... to me ... just isn't good enough... I'll accept that Esstor says they have 3rd party confirmation ... but until the 3rd party themselves gives the confirmation... Esstor's word for it , just isn't good enough for me to believe it is anything more than just Esstor saying they have it ... and maybe that is just me being too picky.... but until the 3rd party actually gives confirmation ... in my personal picky book ... there is no 3rd party confirmation.

[jstdadd]

Is 'Esstor' intended to indicate 'Eestor', or am I missing some subtlety?

[IamIan]

Is 'Esstor' intended to indicate 'Eestor', or am I missing some subtlety?

you are correct it is supposed to be EEstor... I forget where ... but I picked up Esstor ... from something I read somewhere ... and I haven't yet broken myself of this bad / incorrect habit.

[oldpecan]

fwiw they're having a party over at www.theeestory.com

apparently temperature independence indicates voltage independence - high permittivity at high voltage - i don't no - u tell me

apparently a "corrected" press releasefrom EEStor today has a couple more juicy details

[iwannaptera]

fwiw they're having a party over at www.theeestory.com

apparently temperature independence indicates voltage independence - high permittivity at high voltage - i don't no - u tell me

apparently a "corrected" press releasefrom EEStor today has a couple more juicy details

Curiouser and curiouser. So, it wasn't just the powder they were testing, but an actual dielectric plate. Not a device yet, but MUCH closer.

The temperature independence of permitivity is an interesting thing. It suggests that the material is unlike other high K dielectrics known before (even other barium titanates which is odd??). Previously described high K dielectrics have a large temperature dependence of permitivity (as temperature goes up, permitivity goes way down) but that does not automatically mean that there will be VOLTAGE independence of permitivity (which would matter a great deal). It is SO annoying that they go through all this effort to show things like purity of the material, temperature independence etc., but they still have not shown capacitance.

Is EEstor a scam or not? Time will certainly tell, but things are certainly getting more interesting. For the first time, we have evidence that the EEstor material is fundamentally different from previously described high permitivity dielectrics.

[n_dawg]

They probably just gave the guy cheddar cheese to test. ;)

[speculawyer]

Man, EEStor and possibly some ZENN people are playing with fire. They may end up with mail fraud charges and/or insider trading charges. Someone obviously traded upon the announcement in the days before it was released.

Put up or shut up.

[iwannaptera]

Man, EEStor and possibly some ZENN people are playing with fire. They may end up with mail fraud charges and/or insider trading charges. Someone obviously traded upon the announcement in the days before it was released.

Put up or shut up.

Isn't that the truth. The stock price shot up something like 75% right before the news came out. VERY SUSPECT.

[KarenRei]

Curiouser and curiouser. So, it wasn't just the powder they were testing, but an actual dielectric plate. Not a device yet, but MUCH closer.

Supposedly the reason it wasn't tested at significant voltage was that it didn't yet have the electrodes.

Well, we'll see what happens.

[c0mp13x]

A cover story on super/ultra capacitors starts on page 19 (PDF page 21) of the American Ceramic Society Bulletin, Vol. 88, No. 4. EEStor is mentioned starting on page 23:

http://www.americanceramicsociety.org/bulletin/apr_09/pdf/lo_res_complete_Apr_09%2010-43-00.pdf


A Zenn Motor assembly line worker installs a capacitor bank.

(The photo originally shown with the caption above and in the ACS Bulletin, was mistakenly attributed to Zenn. It is actually a photo from the AFS Trinity website for a Saturn Vue conversion)

:happy0025:

[iwannaptera]

A Zenn Motor assembly line worker installs a capacitor bank.

:happy0025:

I wasn't aware that Zenn had vehicles that large. I also don't really see anything that looks like a capacitor bank. Although, I will readily admit that I am not sure I would recognize an EEstor unit if tripped over it. Where is this picture from? EDIT: I see it is from the american ceramic society pdf you helpfully provided. That is VERY interesting. Are they actually testing devices? That is WAY ahead of any other news I have seen on EEstor. It is hard to understand why they would have dragged their feet in regards to the permitivity test, if they already had devices. The only thing for sure about EEstor, is that they are really odd.

[KarenRei]

What they're installing looks hollow. Perhaps it's just a bay for a capacitor to fit into?

[c0mp13x]

4/29/09 - Ian Clifford from Zenn is interviewed about the recent announcements from EEStor:

http://zenncars.com/media/documents/globeandmail4.pdf

:happy0025:

[Matthijs]

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1022286_ceo-of-zenn-motors-eestor-production-storage-units-to-be-demonstrated-in-weeks-delivered-in-months

http://gm-volt.com/2009/07/20/qa-with-ian-clifford-ceo-of-zenn-motors-eestor-to-publicly-prove-its-technology-imminently/

And as I said before, this September EEStor has stated that they will be certifying at-voltage components which actually are build capacitors off their production facility.
So they’re going to actually demonstrate true truly functioning capacitors, not just a powder?
Exactly. Which has always been their next logical step towards a final commercial product.
"EEStor made the public statement that they anticipate having at-voltage components verified independently by September of this year and delivery of production prototype EESUs to us by then end of 2009," says Clifford. Third time is the charm?

[speculawyer]

Here is the critical sentence of the recent articles:
We moved our ownership stake from around 3.8% to around 10.7% and at the same time we also just concluded a 9.3 million dollar equity raise in Zenn Motor Companies.

Nobody really cares about Zenn's NEVs. Like most NEVs, their sales are going nowhere fast. Basically, because at 25 miles per hour, you are going no where fast. However, Zenn has this exclusive licensing agreement with EEstor . . . and despite the "if it is too good to be true then it probably is" problem with EEstor, people continue to be interested. Thus, the ability for ZENN to raise money is dependent on the EEstor hype. So, why would Ian Clifford want to derail that hype train?

He'll just continue to carefully issue optimistic statements. I would guess that he suspects/knows that eestor won't deliver . . . but if making a $700,000 milestone payment and a few optimistic words allows him to raise $9.3 million . . . why be skeptical?


Like everyone, I really wish/hope that eestor would deliver the magic. But experience shows me that it is very unlikely for them to be able to deliver on their claims.

[randyd]

Like everyone, I really wish/hope that eestor would deliver the magic. But experience shows me that it is very unlikely for them to be able to deliver on their claims.

I agree with your sentiments.

There is a Haiku thread (http://theeestory.com/topics/2342#) going at TheEEStory.com (http://theeestory.com) to help kill time until the next milestone. Some of my favorites:

Idealistic:
Sun or wind power,
Stored in your E.E.S.U.--
Isn't that true freedom?

Pessimistic:
Why won't Eestor work?
Saturation's the problem
You're an idiot

and Optimistic:
is dielectric
a problem not solvable
i do not thnk so
:happy0025:

[Matthijs]

Newly released interview with Dick Weir of EEStor: http://www.theeestory.com/topics/2512

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/5577862/14646725

[Dolphyn]

The original audio (video) has been removed from Yahoo, but a transcript is posted here: http://www.theeestory.com/topics/2529

Meanwhile, someone has dug up a patent from Polarity, Inc. that clearly references EEStor technology: http://www.theeestory.com/topics/2556

[Iced_Eagle]

Very interesting! I hope that the claims turn out to be true, and that they start getting put into production sooner rather than later.