Loremo vs Aptera

[pottzio]

Aptera vs Loremo
I will skip the electric part in this post as it is absolutely clear that it is "trivial" for integration in any vehicle.

Aptera / Loremo
Fuel consumption on fuel
>130mpg / >120mpg
Weight
1300lbs? / <1200lbs
Seating
2+1 / 2+2
Aerodynamic drag - Cd
0,11 / 0,2
Price
$29000(in CA only?) / <15000euro(in EU only?)
Note: 15000eu cars in Europe usually cost the same amount or less in dollars in the US.
So the price of Loremo in US theoretically would be $15000.



In my opinion the most successful vehicle would be one between those two:
-One that has 4 seats allocated like Loremo style.
-High passenger compartment like Aptera.
-Cheap petrol/diesel engine only, like Loremo’s (hybrid and batteries will skyrocket the price of the vehicle). Note that only 2-4% of human made CO2 is caused by cars! So using EVs with energy different than wind, solar or nuclear is nuisance.
-Good aerodynamics like Aptera.
-No fancy electronics (color TFTs etc). There are some clever options. See this for example: http://www.reevu.com/rv.asp
-Tyres must be as narrow as possible (not the Loremo tyres)!

P>S> http://evolution.loremo.com/content/view/98/141/lang,en/

[Chupacabra]

I wouldn't call the Aptera 2+1 seating. The +1 is for a little kid, 5 and under or something. LOL.

The Loremo actually fits what I'm looking for better, the available seating of a regular car plus high mileage and low price. The method of entry is unfortunate. I would not buy one based on that fact. A vehicle with only 2 routes out to escape from is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

http://evolution.loremo.com/images/stories/menue_design/loremo-einstieg.jpg

[KarenRei]

AFAIK, Aptera weight is stated as "under 1500lbs"

I'd hate to get in or out of a Loremo in the rain ;) Look at how it opens. Not only will you get soaked, but your whole dash will. Better make it waterproof! Windshield wipers on the inside would be nice, too ;) And anyone want to take any bets as to how low of a speed collision you'd need to be in to break that opening mechanism? 10mph? 15?

It's now "under 30,000 euros", not 15,000. Sort of like how the Aptera inflated from $20,000 to $27,000.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/02/22/loremo-will-go-all-electric-skipping-this-years-geneva-motor-s/

Also, how could a European car price in Euros cost *less* in dollars? That makes no sense. The Euro is, what, 50% more valuable than the dollar? And they'd have to pay to export it, too.

Also, Loremo's claims bother me. For example, how do they claim that they're reducing weight? With the Aptera, it's obvious -- small battery pack, composite skin, three wheels, two seats, steel only in limited places, etc. And it comes in at "under 1500 pounds". The Loremo? They simply claim that they're just using steel more efficiently. Huh? Steel more efficiently and you get a four-seater down to 1200lbs? How does that work without throwing safety out the door? They claim it does well in crash test simulations, but I don't see how that's possible; if you could just rearrange structural elements and get that dramatic of a weight reduction, *someone* would have done it long ago. And look at that opening mechanism! How could that *possibly* be lightweight?

That's one thing that I love about the Aptera: it *makes sense*. I haven't seen a single claim by them that fails a basic logic test. With many other vehicles in development, there's often something that makes me scratch my head and go, "now, how is THAT supposed to work?" The Loremo is one of those vehicles. Aptera has done some pretty impressive things, but they're all due to reasonable design decisions that can logically correspond with the claimed benefit.

Loremo also has some of the same "Gee-whiz" things that make me dislike the Karma and some other EVs/PHEVs. In the latest renderings of the Karma, for example has a huge grille on the front. What for? EVs need only minimal cooling air, not air for combustion in a huge V8, and PHEVs only need a little air for combustion. In the case of the Loremo, it's got that big sports-car style air intake on each side. What for? There's no way you need that much air for cooling motors or batteries. It's all about styling trends, not making the car run as efficiently as possible.

[c0mp13x]

Aptera / Loremo
Fuel consumption on fuel
>130mpg / >120mpg
Weight
1300lbs? / <1200lbs
Seating
2+1 / 2+2
Aerodynamic drag - Cd
0,11 / 0,2
Price
$29000(in CA only?) / <15000euro(in EU only?)
Note: 15000eu cars in Europe usually cost the same amount or less in dollars in the US.
So the price of Loremo in US theoretically would be $15000.

In my opinion the most successful vehicle would be one between those two:

-One that has 4 seats allocated like Loremo style.
-High passenger compartment like Aptera.
-Cheap petrol/diesel engine only, like Loremo’s (hybrid and batteries will skyrocket the price of the vehicle). Note that only 2-4% of human made CO2 is caused by cars! So using EVs with energy different than wind, solar or nuclear is nuisance.
-Good aerodynamics like Aptera.
-No fancy electronics (color TFTs etc). There are some clever options. See this for example: http://www.reevu.com/rv.asp
-Tyres must be as narrow as possible (not the Loremo tyres)
:cool: While I admire the Loremo's design and style pottzio, the comparative stat that you are leaving out is that the Loremo LS 0-60mph time is 20 seconds! One of the reasons it's so inexpensive is that it's using a 20hp engine to move around a 1500lb (loaded) vehicle. Some people question the 10 second 0-60mph time of the Aptera (which is adequate); a 0-60mph time of 20 seconds would be unacceptable to the majority of drivers. I can't imagine merging onto a high speed highway with that kind of performance. Now, if you upgrade to the Loremo GT or even the new EV model, price and performance are more in line with the Aptera, but mileage drops.

BUT... all that said, the biggest reason I wouldn't buy a Loremo is scale! All the pictures show a beautifully designed aerodynamic shape... but the Loremo is the size of a large go-cart! Loremo never shows the car in publicity photos with a person inside it or standing next to it.

Look at the pictures linked below and you will see 2 average people have a difficult time sitting shoulder to shoulder inside; the overall vehicle is go-cart tiny. So that's how they can make this car so light and cheap! This size puts you and your children in the rear (gulp!) at below the height of almost every vehicle on the road. The Loremo is a interesting concept, but it definitely has it's own set of compromises.

Shoulder to shoulder in a Loremo (http://www.flickr.com/photos/loremo/1396831922/sizes/o/)

There's a small car down here! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/loremo/1292839496/sizes/o/)

;)

[KarenRei]

Oh, and a correction:

Note that only 2-4% of human made CO2 is caused by cars!

http://arch.rivm.nl/env/int/ipcc/pages_media/FAR4docs/final_pdfs_ar4/Chapter05.pdf

"In 2004, transport was responsible for 23% of the world's energy-related GHG emissions with about three quarters coming from road vehicles. Over the past decade, transport's GHG emissions have increased at a faster rate than any other energy using sector (high agreement, much evidence)."

Also, it's going to get even worse, not only as the third world motorizes, but also as oil shifts more and more to syncrude. True, most people overestimate car's contribution to the total, but they're the hardest part of the total to fix, and their share is growing so rapidly. Also, cars have other problems of their own -- namely, releasing non-GHG pollutants directly at street-level in the middle of populated areas. It causes significant health problems in places.

[Chupacabra]

Wow, those 2 people in that car look crowded. The guy standing in front of it towers over it. It looks smaller then my old Porsche 914. There are some major compromises here which I feel will prevent it from ever being a market share...

I'm not an Aptera Fanboy or anything who would defend it against all logic (one shouldn't, it should be able to stand on its own), but like Karen said the Aptera just makes sense. Its biggest issue in becoming a viable popular car for the average person is that its only a 2 seater currently. But once we're done blazing the trail and people see its viable, Aptera will move forward with the 4 seater I'm sure.

~C

[Matthijs]

And anyone want to take any bets as to how low of a speed collision you'd need to be in to break that opening mechanism? 10mph? 15?
I am following the Loremo project since 2005. The project itself goes back to 1993 so it isn't going as fast as desired. This pictures of the Loremo are from the "mock up", it has no engine, no drive line etc. They also made a driving prototype that has a different opening mechanism. It's far more simple and robust.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1070/1292637525_ad54b58f18.jpg?v=0
Link (http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1174/1292638297_00bee7257a.jpg?v=0)

It's now "under 30,000 euros", not 15,000. Sort of like how the Aptera inflated from $20,000 to $27,000.

I think 2 things are mixed up here. The original price of the Loremo was 12.000 euro for the diesel LS version. Now this price is <15.000 euro. They can't seem to find a diesel angine for the Loremo yet so they are focussing on the EV version that will be priced <30.000 euro.

Loremo Facts Link (http://evolution.loremo.com/content/view/98/141/lang,en/)

Also, Loremo's claims bother me. For example, how do they claim that they're reducing weight? With the Aptera, it's obvious -- small battery pack, composite skin, three wheels, two seats, steel only in limited places, etc. And it comes in at "under 1500 pounds". The Loremo? They simply claim that they're just using steel more efficiently. Huh? Steel more efficiently and you get a four-seater down to 1200lbs? How does that work without throwing safety out the door? They claim it does well in crash test simulations, but I don't see how that's possible; if you could just rearrange structural elements and get that dramatic of a weight reduction, *someone* would have done it long ago. And look at that opening mechanism! How could that *possibly* be lightweight?
The EV version will be <1300lbs The basic steel structure of the Loremo is only 95kg! The interior is even more weight reductive than the Aptera. Just interior cloth directly on steel. That is lighter then the Aptera and the Loremo will also make use of a composite shell. They did some crash testing on a simulator that can be seen here.

Wh_A4nyjxYM

That's one thing that I love about the Aptera: it *makes sense*. I haven't seen a single claim by them that fails a basic logic test. With many other vehicles in development, there's often something that makes me scratch my head and go, "now, how is THAT supposed to work?" The Loremo is one of those vehicles. Aptera has done some pretty impressive things, but they're all due to reasonable design decisions that can logically correspond with the claimed benefit.
I think the Loremo is a very logic design for a 2+2 vehicle. (They are gonna make it a bit bigger (8cm higher and 5 cm more width)) If the structure seems safe and stiff enough it can be really light. Just like a monocock type of structure.

Loremo also has some of the same "Gee-whiz" things that make me dislike the Karma and some other EVs/PHEVs. In the latest renderings of the Karma, for example has a huge grille on the front. What for? EVs need only minimal cooling air, not air for combustion in a huge V8, and PHEVs only need a little air for combustion. In the case of the Loremo, it's got that big sports-car style air intake on each side. What for? There's no way you need that much air for cooling motors or batteries. It's all about styling trends, not making the car run as efficiently as possible.
Note that the body shape is designed for a ICE type car. That's why it has those air intakes. For the EV they are not needed.

Maybe I am a bit on the defensive side here. But you must understand that the people behind this project are really green minded and trying to create a 2+2 vehicle that's as efficient as possible. I would really like to see you back on the Loremo forum and ask your questions there. People on the Loremo forum are really great in car technics and other car related stuff. It's noticeble that Germany is really a country of automotive people. I really hope Loremo and Aptera both will make it to market so people have a choice of buying energy efficient cars.

[KarenRei]

The basic steel structure of the Loremo is only 95kg!

But see, that's what bugs me. Steel is heavy. 95kg is not. Which means that their frame is using very little metal, period -- by my calculations, 0.43 cubic feet if it were one solid block. That's not much to make a frame out of, which makes me think this would be a nightmare in a crash. They say it won't be, but the amount of steel used makes me think otherwise. Unless it's like a maraging steel or something.

I guess since it's such a tiny car, that could explain part of it.

Thanks for clearing up the price discrepancy. What do Loremo fans think about issues like sliding under in a crash, the opening mechanism jamming in a crash, or rain when you open the "door"? The new pic you showed looks a little better, but it's still at the front of the car and exposes the inside wide open.

[Matthijs]

What do Loremo fans think about issues like sliding under in a crash, the opening mechanism jamming in a crash, or rain when you open the "door"? The new pic you showed looks a little better, but it's still at the front of the car and exposes the inside wide open.
Well there is allot of info on the subject down @ the Loremo forum. I really hope you will register there as well and ask some questions. The people there are really technical and have the same discussion style like you when it comes to cars. So maybe you can ask them about the structure and why you think it can never be any good.

It seems they rely enough on the structure and say that the front door will open in a crash or they will escape through the glass roof. They say when the Loremo is opened up it will not be soaked because the seats will be under the roof and water will for the most part be on the front foot compartment. Also look at their FAQ (http://evolution.loremo.com/content/view/129/216/lang,en/)

Let me know what you think about it. :)

PS Also note that the Loremo will be a convertible car as well, pretty nice imo.
PS II You can have a look at the structure of the Loremo in this video's.
Video I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AlWfSc5_4w&feature=PlayList&p=27073C08FF039871&index=24) (From 1:30min)
Video II (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqkl1Ve_T8c)
Video III (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EZksMbCvxA) (Including translation in Word document)

[KarenRei]

Well, not knowing their technical arguments about crash safety, I can't comment on them (other than just generally pointing out how tiny of an amount of steel that is), but:

. They say when the Loremo is opened up it will not be soaked because the seats will be under the roof

Come on, that's directly contradicted by the pictures. And just add the slightest breeze to the situation. If they're planning to change the design, that's one thing, but if it's to be anything like this...

Anyways, this isn't to demean their work; just simply to explain the reasons why I have doubts about safety and the other reasons I wouldn't want one. I hope they succeed and find a good market for their product; the more EVs, the better :)

[pottzio]

Most of the opinions are quite logical and right.
I have made a serious mistake with the statement: “Note that only 2-4% of human made CO2 is caused by cars”
In Europe this number is 12% in USA possibly more but we all now how efficient USA’s vehicles are.


One think however must be noted. It is not possible to have super strong/safe vehicle, light, and at a low price!
We have to make compromises. And if you Americans expect to drive big, efficient, build like tank cars(safe), well you have to reconsider.

Loremo has many inconveniences but you must not they are trying to make the most fuel efficient car for as many people as possible for the lowest price (contrary to Aptera that is aiming at the higher priced marked).
Honestly speaking I like the Aptera design much more - more advanced. And I really hope the rich people in CA will buy this car so that they can expand their production.
We really need cars with good aerodynamics.

[KarenRei]

"It is not possible to have super strong/safe vehicle, light, and at a low price!"

Reminds me of the exchange:

Manager: "I want it good, I want it fast, and I want it cheap."
Engineer: "Pick two."