Green Vehicles - Triac (Scam?)

[Matthijs]

I found another EV on youtube. But the site is very limited on information. Seems like another scam to me. But we will see.

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Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_q3D0qp0So)

VzBLePJrccw
Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzBLePJrccw)

http://www.greenvehicles.com/

[gg222]

Funny I've never hear of them until today. A rock hit my windshield this morning on the way to work and I had someone come by and fix it today. We started talking and I told her about the Aptera and how fuel efficient it was. She told me she does work for the local Volvo dealership. One of the managers she does work with told her he was leaving the dealership to work for a company that will sell Triacs (the local Zap dealership her in Santa Rosa). I tried to google Triac today and didn't find anything about cars.

[appyfan]

I went on their website... It's actually pretty cool. I'm going to try to get into contact with them.

[gg222]

What is their website?

[appyfan]

Lol, the link is on the first post...

www.greenvehicles.com

[sck_nogas]

Who are these guys? Well, the domain is registered at GoDaddy by Ehab Youssef (http://who.godaddy.com/WhoIs.aspx?domain=greenvehicles.com&prog_id=godaddy), and his domain is listed in an advertisement in Information Quarterly Magazine Volume 2, Number 2, 2003 (http://www.iqmagazineonline.com/magazine/pdf/v_2_2_pdf/v_2_2_design_8.pdf) which looks like this...

http://www.nogas.org/Aptera/yousseflaw.jpg

He was the star of this Wired article on Zap (http://www.wired.com/cars/futuretransport/magazine/16-04/ff_zapped?currentPage=1)...

And there's a "Los Gatos residents get jump on 'green' trend" article in the Jun 17, 2007 Los Gatos News.
(http://www.thelgnews.com/article/2007-6-17-lg-going-green)

So, maybe he's trying to become an importer?

Scott

[KarenRei]

Someone who wants to be part of a green car business but backed the wrong pony, basically.

[drivin98]

Man, you guys are fast. I just found that video this morning. I heard about it a while back though. Originally I was told it would be lead acid batteries but apparently it's lithium ion. He sounds like a decent guy. Hope he can make a go of it.

He had it in the Christmas parade in Los Gatos last year. http://losgatosobserver.com/los-gatos/article-images/Parade07-53.jpg

[drivin98]

There's a Triac post at AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/04/26/video-new-triac-highway-speed-electric-car-available-now/) now.

[appyfan]

I tried emailing them sometime last week and I got no reply...

[appyfan]

OoOoOoO.... Look what I got guys:

Friends of Green Vehicles, We have received an incredible number of inquiries over the past week as a result of our YouTube video postings. So first, thank you for your interest in EVs and in Green Vehicles. We have been hard at work developing vehicles (and, as one recent web siteput it, we have been doing so in “stealth mode”) that will outperform your expectations without asking you to pay an unreachable premium. Our purpose for developing in such a fashion was to avoid making promises and predictions before knowing they can be kept.

So now that you know we exist, we’d like to tell you who we are. Our full website will be posted this in a matter of days; this will be a good place to begin. Please check it out. We are a Northern California based company that will begin selling two best-in-class Lithium-Ion powered pure electric vehicles early this summer. The TRIAC is a 5-speed freeway drivable 3-wheeler with a powerful 20kW AC motor capable of 80MPH (note the correction from video). On a single charge, at a speed of 45MPH, you can drive for 100 miles (we feel this is a more reasonable predictor of range than lower speed tests that led to 120 miles, as shown on the video- update forthcoming).

The BUCKSHOT (no footage posted yet) is a 3-speed Lithium-Ion powered truck also with a 20kW AC motor. This is a true work truck, with close attention paid to payload capacity, torque, and durability. For deliveries, the BUCKSHOT can come with a lockable cargo shell; for construction, a steel lumber rack; and for all-purpose functionality, a steel body with an extra-long bed and an ample passenger cabin. Environmentally conscious universities, businesses, and municipalities should take note of the BUCKSHOT; there is nothing like it!

Both vehicles come standard with one of the world’s most sophisticated battery maintenance systems to ensure that you get the full potential out of each high quality Lithium-Ion battery. Additionally, each EV has an onboard charger that can be plugged into 120V or 240V outlets, giving owners the option for faster charging without giving up the convenience of being able to plug in anywhere.

Green Vehicles’ two NEVs, the Microwatt and the Moose are still underdevelopment; our hope is to bring them to market this fall. In the neighborhood electric vehicle market, there is a delicate balance between affordability and quality; we are happy only when we can offer both. If your question is not addressed by the complete website or by this email, please accept our apology and send us a follow-up email atinfo@greenvehicles.com.

Best regards,
Green Vehicles

[Chupacabra]

at 45mph only 100 miles.. range will go down at higher speeds. Evs are so limited. they really need to work on that.

[drivin98]

But, if you are traveling around in-town, I think you would get more distance. 100 miles range takes care of 99% of my driving.

[Chupacabra]

many people just want to have one car. or can't afford two. stuff like this will continue to be considered a toy or novelty until they can offer true range and speed. even with as great as aptera is, the range is still severly limited. i believe they are first in the pack though, and the ground they will gain from deploying apteras will lead to truly widespread EVs in the years to follow.

[appyfan]

I think it's all relative.

I mean to people that travel 50 miles or more to work everyday, sure it's a toy. But for some people who work locally or rarely head out of their city, it's a viable means of transportation. And if it's cheap enough it may even catch on...

It still beats taking the bus.

[drivin98]

New pictures and update on the Triac (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/05/07/more-details-on-the-electric-triac-emerge-new-truck/). Sounds like they're making a truck too? The Buckshot?

[appyfan]

You know, I really wish I was on the design team when they conjured up this car. The third head light looks wrong, the side view mirrors look like an afterthought, the headlights look cheap, the steering wheel looks like something you'd buy at a bug shop and the rear wheel should have some sort of fairing to conceal its identity. :sick0020:

But... If it's cheap enough, who cares.

[ApteraStorm]

You know, I really wish I was on the design team when they conjured up this car. The third head light looks wrong, the side view mirrors look like an afterthought, the headlights look cheap, the steering wheel looks like something you'd buy at a bug shop and the rear wheel should have some sort of fairing to conceal its identity. :sick0020:

But... If it's cheap enough, who cares.

I guess that might be the point... it's not a car. It's a motorcycle. :D The rear end definitely is reminiscent of that. ;)

Seriously, it does look goofy. And I agree about the cyclops headlight... yuck!

[Matthijs]

ABG (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/05/07/more-details-on-the-electric-triac-emerge-new-truck/) Did a followup article with some new info. Stats seem to have changed a bit.

[dcmeserve]

Why a 5-speed transmission?

With electric motors, I thought that one gear ratio should suffice, especially if you're cutting back on the top speed (not much above highway legal limits) on one end and acceleration (0-60 in well above Tesla's 4sec, I'm sure) on the other.

Or is a 20kw motor just too weak? (On Tesla's site, they show their motor's peak power use at 189kw; I haven't seen Aptera's motor-kw rating.)

[drivin98]

I was reading http://gwiz.myfastforum.org/about1239.html of an electric Peugot minivan that didn't have a the transmission and the driver said it really suffered because of it. Sure, you can go without it if you have the right kind of batteries and the right controller but I think it could still come in handy for some set-ups.

[MegaAutoBit]

Triac ready for delivery in July, with full bumper to bumper warranty, crash test info, service network, and leasing plans. Aptera better watch out.

Link (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/05/13/triac-to-arrive-this-july-reservations-being-accepted-and-othe/)

[drivin98]

Triac ready for delivery in July, with full bumper to bumper warranty, crash test info, service network, and leasing plans. Aptera better watch out.


Looks like it's delayed by about three months (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/07/triac-tryouts-to-begin-this-october-deliveries-in-november/) but still coming. They have a new dealer in Marin county listed on their website. The building in Google Maps streetview is empty but at least it's there.

[gg222]

Looks like it's delayed by about three months (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/07/triac-tryouts-to-begin-this-october-deliveries-in-november/) but still coming. They have a new dealer in Marin county listed on their website. The building in Google Maps streetview is empty but at least it's there.

I live in Marin County. Let me know where the building is and I'll check it out this weekend.

[drivin98]

Here you go. Link (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=433+Miller+Ave.,+Mill+Valley&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&resnum=1&ct=title)

Looks like it used to be Samurai Restaurant.

[KarenRei]

Where are they supposedly getting the money for this? Youssef was an IP lawyer who got scammed by Zap. Certainly he can't afford to pony up tens of millions of dollars, can he? Can anyone explain the ridiculously fast claimed development process? Were they operating in stealth or something?

This Triac stuff, while not screaming "scam", has never quite seemed to add up.

[drivin98]

Found more on this dealership. It's run by Mike Ryan and it looks like it's in business. There's a Triac in the window.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TlAOuXNjE00/SCAjJxbEM6I/AAAAAAAADYE/bPdovwqix38/s1600/DSC00732.jpg

[KarenRei]

And another thing -- A $20k vehicle with a 144V, 160Ah li-ion battery pack? Huh? That's 23kWh. If we give them the benefit of the doubt and assume $0.50/Wh for automotive li-ions, that'd be $11.5k *just for the battery pack*. Then you have to add in several thousand for the motor and several thousand more for the inverter/charger... and these are just the *raw components* prices, let alone the labor costs, let alone the *rest of the car*, let alone profit. And why the heck are they using a transmission on something like this, with an option for a *5-speed* transmission?

It just doesn't add up. I just can't make this vehicle add up.

Oh, and nothing about crash testing -- even simulated crash testing. :P

[Dolphyn]

The manufacturing process is based in China, so the costs are probably lower than we might be inclined to assume.

I think the crash testing is to be done by customers. (Hey, the Tesla customer car crashing program is already off to a good start.)

I actually like this vehicle, if it's for real and if the quality is decent. I'm planning to schedule a test drive as soon as I can.

[KarenRei]

Batteries made in China are sold on the open market -- you can get ThunderSkys and the like over here, too. Same with the other drivetrain components. All manufacturing in China will due is cut vehicle assembly costs, but then you have to pay for the cost of importing it to the US.

This just doesn't add up.

[aptera1213]

drivin, dolphyn...please post some photos if and when you get by the store...

and if you test drive, let us know how it feels...sturdy? safe? etc

i don't really like the design, but, if IF this ends up a real vehicle to buy, well more electric cars the better

[KarenRei]

And remember: one working prototype does not legit make (although it certainly helps add confidence). Let's not forget the Exar-1 scam from the 1970s. But by all means, if you test drive, report back here. :)

[nuaetius]

I do some importing from china. Let me check some sources. Might be able to find manufacturer.

[nuaetius]

Does this look familiar?

http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/jinghang/product-detailZIJQmvAuqnzw/China-Electric-Car-with-4-Seats-JHEC-003Z4-.html

If I had to make a guess, the Triac is a rebranding / reengineering of this vehicle.

Thing of the cost reduction if you ask them to take out the back seat, ½ the rear drive train, and reduce the rear structure in half. Just a thought.

[nuaetius]

Actually I think this one is the Triac

http://www.jinghangcn.com/JHEC-003.htm

This one is the Microwatt

http://www.jinghangcn.com/JHEC-003A.htm

So I guess the real question is this: Are the modifcations done stateside or in China?

[KarenRei]

Turning a four wheeler into a three wheeler? I'm not so sure. Either way, I wasn't even focusing on the cost of producing the *rest* of the vehicle. Just the drivetrain alone doesn't make sense with their pricepoint.

[drivin98]

None of those links show the Triac, unfortunately. I haven't been able to find it either. I suspect they are having most of the work done in China, with the BMS being installed here. I suspect they aren't paying thousands for the motor and inverter. I couldn't even guess on the price of the LiFePO4.

Still, the Aptera should be quite a bit better quality all aroud and it's only $27,800. I want to give Green Vehicles the benefit of the doubt for ow.

[KarenRei]

. I suspect they aren't paying thousands for the motor and inverter.

Can you point me to an equivalent power motor and inverter that don't cost thousands? Chinese companies typically sell their goods on the open market unless there's some sort of legal barrier, and I can't picture a legal barrier for a motor or inverter. And the same goes with batteries. ThunderSkys are becoming pretty popular over here, for example. The prices just don't fit.

I'm not going to give any company whose stats don't make sense, whose production schedule makes no sense, whose financing seems nearly absent, who is using a "transmission" for no discernable reason except to make an already financially infeasible vehicle even more unrealistic, who has almost no legit media coverage, and so on, the "benefit of the doubt", and I wouldn't recommend anyone else do so, either.

[drivin98]

I totally respect your position KarenRei and appreciate the candor. I still hope you are wrong though. So..

Hopefully they are using something better but what's the cost of the Zap Xebra motor and controller? They retail at $11,700 for the "car" and they also need headroom for profit.

[KarenRei]

I hope I'm wrong too, actually. :)

The Xebra motor is only 5kW. Its controller is likewise very weak, and doesn't support regen.

[Dolphyn]

Here is another article about Green Vehicles, highlighting their "truck" called the Buckshot:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/11/will-buckshot-kill-the-xebra/

[KarenRei]

I figured out what the "Buckshot" is. Buckshot:

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/08/buckshot.jpg

Trifun Quarter Ton:

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/03/Trifun_Quarter_Ton.jpg
http://trifun.com/index.html

The Trifun Quarter Ton is a 3 wheeled Chinese ICE-powered truck with... wait for it... a 5 speed transmission. It costs $10k.

Now, why wouldn't GreenVehicles tell us that these are Chinese conversions? Heck, if they even are converted at all... Furthermore, with a 10k original retail price, we're supposed to believe that they're adding *23kWh* of LiP batteries, an inverter, a charger, and a 20kW motor for $8k (incl. labor), and all they have to sell aftermarket is a cheapo Chinese ICE?

[drivin98]

so, if Trifun is selling it for $10,000, what are they buying it for? $5,000? How much would it cost without the engine and other bits installed? I doubtgreen Vehicles is buying the thing with a gas engine and ripping it out.
I don't really see the problem with the 5-speed either. Almost all conversions are done to cars with manual transmissions.

Were you saying before that 23 Kwh of batteries would be at least $11,500? That would definitely be a high price to work into this vehicle.

[KarenRei]

The MSRP of cars is more than the wholesale price, that's true, but not *double*. Even a Lexus only has about a 13% difference between the dealer purchase price and the MSRP (a Suzuki is generally 4%):

http://www.leaseguide.com/Articles/carprices.htm

And 50 cars a month is nothing special; it's not like they're going to get some "bulk bulk" discount or anything. A typical car dealership may move a couple hundred cars a month. And it's not like the Chinese auto industry is raking in profits that they could cut back on:

http://www.gasgoo.com/auto-news/6591/Chinese-auto-industry-s-gross-profit-margin-down-cost-up.html

I'm contacting Trifun to see if I can get some more information.

[KarenRei]

Just got this in the mail:

From:
Tighe Estes <trifuninc@yahoo.com>
To: Karen <meme@daughtersoftiresias.org>
Date: Today 11:18:31 am

We are not affiliated with them in any way! Please let me know if you have any more questions.

Sincerely,

Tighe Estes
President
Trifun, Inc.
3330 North Federal Highway
Lighthouse Point, FL 33064
Phone: (800) 942-1440
(954) 942-1440
Fax: (954)942-1339
Email: Trifuninc@yahoo.com

Visit us on the web www.trifun.com

--- On Tue, 8/12/08, Karen <meme@daughtersoftiresias.org> wrote:

From: Karen <meme@daughtersoftiresias.org>
Subject: Green Vehicles
To: trifuninc@yahoo.com
Date: Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 3:49 PM

There's a company called Green Vehicles (www.greenvehicles.com) purporting to be near ready to mass produce an electric vehicle called the Buckshot. What they're not mentioning is that it's quite obviously a conversion of your Trifun Quarter Ton. Here's a pic:

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/08/buckshot.jpg
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/08/buckshot-small-side.jpg

Are you in a partnership with them, or are they doing this on their own? Is there any way they're buying your Trifun Quarter Ton vehicles in bulk, or would they have to be at retail? Is there any way that they'd be buying engineless mules, or would they have to come with an engine?

I'm trying to figure out what's going on with this company because a lot of things they're saying just don't add up. Thanks for any input you can provide.

- Karen

Looks like they're not getting them in bulk or getting mules, for that matter; don't see how you could do that without being affiliated with Trifun! This should be a big red flag. Unless they've got a factory making unlicensed clones of an already Chinese-made vehicle (which would make absolutely no sense), being run by a guy with no office for his business (Ehab), and no visible source of venture capital, that is.

[Dolphyn]

Oh come on! Let me first concede that it's entirely possible that GreenVehicles is a scam. Currently I do not see any convincing evidence of that, but on the other hand I would feel a lot better if the GreenVehicles deposits were going through an escrow company.

The Buckshot has some resemblence to the Trifun, sure, but they do not look like the same vehicle. China is, among other things, a land of copyright violations, plagiarism, and piracy. Why would it be any surprise for one Chinese company to take design cues from another? Is it any surprise that Flybo vehicles look like Smart Cars?

As for the batteries, if GreenVehicles can get decent batteries at a ridiculous price, more power to them (so to speak). Time will tell, I guess.

[KarenRei]

*sigh*. If you can't tell that these are the exact same vehicle with some very minor cosmetic changes, I don't know what to say. There are warning flags flying all over the place here. Yes, it's possible that a lawyer with no visible source of venture capital started a business with no office that that runs a factory in China that is making knockoffs of other Chinese vehicles, without those people knowing about them, knocking them off for half the price, and that they also have a secret battery company that is making cells for half as much as everyone else but not selling those on the open market, and they're doing the same with motors, inverters, and chargers, and then assembling and importing them with enough margin left over to actually make a profit.

If you believe that, that's your call. Sure, I'd *like* it to be true. But what I'd *like* to be true doesn't have any bearing on what the evidence says.

[drivin98]

I should have been more explicit perhaps. Obviously, Ehab isn't buying the trucks from Tri-fun. That wouldn't even make sense. It's also obvious that Trifun isn't making them either. They are both buying them from China, very possibly from the same supplier since the only differences I could see was the mirror mountings and the extra lights attached to the Buckshot front fender. They both have the optional box for the bed as well.

I don't imagine that mark-up is 100%, I just threw that out there. I imagine they'd try to get a better margin than what large auto companies get though.

As far as the financing for the company I've no idea how it's being arranged. Maybe he's sitting on millions of dollars, I've no idea. I do know Ehab had a store (Green Vehicles) in Los Gatos for a short time. http://losgatosobserver.com/los-gatos/article-images/2008/02/greenveh.jpg

There is also another Green Vehicles store in Mill Valley ( I posted a pic with the Triac in the window but it was too big)

Oh, just found an interview with Ehab on EVCast http://www.evcast.com/members/evcast/blog/VIEW/00000001/00000030/EVcast-23-Interview-with-Ehab-Youssef-from-Green-Vehicles.html

[Dolphyn]

Right, and I have been to the Green Vehicles warehouse (or former warehouse) on Berryessa Rd in San Jose. They had a number of interesting electric vehicles there, including one that looked exactly like the Moose pictured on their website. No visible source of venture capital, sure, but Bay Area real estate is not cheap and they obviously have some money behind their operation.

On another note, according to the video at trifun.com (http://www.trifun.com), Trifun will be making an electric vehicle next year. It will be interesting to see what the specs are!

[KarenRei]

The official contact for Green Vehicles, as listed on their website and in their emails, is Ehab's law office.

I think the history of the Exar-1 should be required reading for anyone making an EV purchase at this point in time:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/8th/984133p.pdf

Back in the 70s, the guy built a one-off EV with impressive stats and convinced many people to put thosuands of dollars down (worth even more today) as deposits for one and convinced many more to invest in his company to produce a production line. He then pocketted the money but pretended for two decades that he was getting closer and closer to them rolling off the line to get people to keep pouring money in. Even after his conviction, some of his hardcore fans still believed him and felt that it must have been some government conspiracy to frame him.

You'll notice in the court filings that they mention, as case history, another, *different* EV scam. EV scams have been going on for a long, long time; there have been more scams companies than real EV companies. Just recently I helped warn people that SparkEV and their "Zotye" was too good to be true, and that there were red flags popping up all over the place (it started out the same way -- the component costs didn't match up with the purported sale price). Some people refused to believe me. Well, what do you know?

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/04/13/spark-evs-michael-papp-arrested-in-electric-vehicle-scam/

I wish bringing an li-ion EV with reasonable range to market wasn't this expensive -- I really do. It's simply unfortunate that it is at this point in time.

[Dolphyn]

Whatever deposits have been collected by GreenVehicles, it's not enough to pay for their real estate. If they're soliciting investments, they've been pretty discreet about it. And, their projected deliveries are in weeks or months, so we should know pretty soon what the real story is.

Having said that, I have not been confident enough to put down a deposit for a Triac. If it went through an escrow company, I probably would have done that by now, since I think the Aptera is too wide for me. (I do have a friend who wants to buy my reserved Aptera from me just as soon as I can get it!)

[Dolphyn]

Hmm, suddenly the Triac price tag has gone up to $22,995, and expected delivery is delayed until December according to autobloggreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/09/29/altcar-2008-triac-in-the-metal-deliveries-to-customers-start-i/). I'm not holding my breath. But, I do know someone who says her boyfriend was able to test-drive the Buckshot.

[evmavin]

These are also sold in other parts of CA. I would caution anyone buying any car made in China as many of these cars are unsafe and being brought into the US without DOT approval or slid in as motorcycles or off road vehicles. So some may do freeway speeds but they are glorified NEV's. Not to mention they will most likely fall apart quickly:)

[speculawyer]

Well, the last public statement on the Triac that I am aware of said they would be shipping at the "End of March".

It looks like they missed a ship date for the fourth or so time? :confused:

[KarenRei]

Like I said -- the whole thing has had a smell to it. I hope nobody we know entrusted any money to them.

[hill]

Who are these guys? Well, the domain is registered at GoDaddy by Ehab Youssef (http://who.godaddy.com/WhoIs.aspx?domain=greenvehicles.com&prog_id=godaddy), and his domain is listed in an advertisement in Information Quarterly Magazine Volume 2, Number 2, 2003 (http://www.iqmagazineonline.com/magazine/pdf/v_2_2_pdf/v_2_2_design_8.pdf) which looks like this...

http://www.nogas.org/Aptera/yousseflaw.jpg

He was the star of this Wired article on Zap (http://www.wired.com/cars/futuretransport/magazine/16-04/ff_zapped?currentPage=1)...

And there's a "Los Gatos residents get jump on 'green' trend" article in the Jun 17, 2007 Los Gatos News.
(http://www.thelgnews.com/article/2007-6-17-lg-going-green)

So, maybe he's trying to become an importer?

Scott

Don't know . . . but he went to a couple killer schools:

http://members.calbar.ca.gov/search/member_detail.aspx?x=169327

[shotgunslade]

Does anyone know what the scoop is on this car? They seem to have delivered product recently. Their website is very light on technical details, however. All they say is 80 mph. 100 mi. range, li-ion batteries. Can't tell front or rear wheel drive, if it has regen braking, what its 0-60 time is. I think it is being manufactured in China. I joined the Triac forum on Yahoo Groups to get some answers, but the moderator hasn't yet approved my interrogaory post.

[Dolphyn]

They've delivered at least one "early adopter" vehicle.
http://mytriacrocks.blogspot.com/

[KarenRei]

They've delivered at least one "early adopter" vehicle.
http://mytriacrocks.blogspot.com/

"The charge time with 110 is a bit lengthy though. A 50 mile trip usually takes me about 10-12 hours to charge."

!!!!!!

Could it really be that inefficient? At those low speeds?

[PatQ562]

The Triac's "standard" battery pack is rated 144V, 160A-hr lithium, ie, 23kW-hr nominal. Such a battery should indeed take about 5 hrs to charge at 240V-25A (5-6kW rate, but allow for tapering and some losses). A half-charge (12kW-hr) would indeed take about 10 hrs at 120V-12A (approx the legal limit). Another unknown is the power factor of the charger - the simpler type circuit has a high AC crest factor, which reduces the effective energy capacity of wiring and breakers by as much as 30-40%, although your bill will not increase appreciably. The "standard" motor is 20kW AC (encouraging) but there is a 5-speed transmission which may add some drag, although it reduces peak strain on slow steep hills. Can't determine final transmission spec although there's no belt visible to the rear wheel. I haven't found the key spec, the weight. The streamlining is manifestly less than Aptera, although not terrible. It seems possible that the owner's reported 50 mile trip with the heater running (1.5kW?) could use about 10-12kWhr, which might require the stated 120V recharge time, depending on the charger performance and battery management system. Just goes to show the challenge facing Aptera in trying to really optimize consumption.
Pat Q

[palmer_md]

I'm starting to seriously look at this and the DUO since it seems Aptera will not be able to produce a vehicle.

I hope they come out with a timeline for the release schedule in January that we can believe is not more spin. This is going to be a big challenge for them. The problem is they have had over a month to create a good story, which makes it harder to believe. They might want to have an outside source go over the plan so we can confirm it. And it cannot be Popular Mechanics.

In the mean time I hope to gather more information about the Triac. Thanks for the heads up Dolphyn. I had heard that they were going to deliver cars in December, but this is the first confirmation I've heard.

[Dolphyn]

I haven't found the key spec, the weight.
Possibly as much as 3000 lbs according to this (http://www.ecohuddle.com/forum/thread/605/triac-tryouts-to-begin-this-october-deliveries-in-november/60) ... hard to believe, though.

I hope they come out with a timeline for the release schedule in January that we can believe is not more spin. This is going to be a big challenge for them.
I don't really believe anybody's stated timelines any more ...

[PatQ562]

My first street capable EV was a converted Karman-Ghia with a 48V aircraft starter-generator powered by 8 of Trojan's Finest 6V golf car batteries. This motor felt like it had maybe 20HP (like a VW motor with one valve blown), and absolutely needed the VW transmission. With the tranny, it could just keep up with traffic and stagger up to 60+ mph. Around town, realistic range was about 20-25 miles, and at 60 mph, about 10 miles before flagging. It required about 30A at 48V (ie 1.2kW) just to overcome brush and transmission losses, and seemed to want at least 200A/40V (12kW) at 60mph, which quickly drained the batteries. This was a relay-driven vehicle with a custom designed shunt-field control that gave me about 2:1 speed control once I reached "baseband speed". Thus, the gearshift was nice to choose an appropriate speed range for given traffic. Any serious acceleration pulled surges well beyond the range of the 400A ammeter. There was no way that motor was going to start off in high gear without blowing something. This was a compound-field, rectangular-wire 28V/400A war surplus generator/motor "built for the government at a cost of thousands", once available in the back of Popular Mechanics for $50. Construction was aircraft-grade and probably as good as it gets for its class.

I was never so surprised at the abilities of the Impact/EV1. I never would have believed a single-gear motor could pull strongly from 0-80mph without overload, and its lead-acid batteries would run 40-60 miles at freeway speeds - at least twice the range, and four times the acceleration as my converted VW. Shows what a real advance the high-voltage, high-speed AC motor, with low-loss reduction gearing really was, as the EV1 motor was hardly any larger, but many times more powerful, than my DC motor. To duplicate the reserve torque and power with a DC machine would take several times the weight.

Pat Q

[KarenRei]

Goes to show how important good engineering is in an EV.

[shotgunslade]

Whatever we think of this particular product, here is the holy grail, the first batch of production cars ready for delivery:

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/22252304/sn/564359138/name/on_there_way_1.jpg

and the product itself doesn't look that bad. It doesn't have the otherworldly flair of the Aptera, but, on the other hand, it may leave you a little more room in your garage:

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/22252304/sn/1715355958/name/triac_at_home.jpg

It is so small, can't imagine that it weighs 3000 lbs. Will post weight information when I receive it.

[ApteraStorm]

Whatever we think of this particular product, here is the holy grail, the first batch of production cars ready for delivery:

It is so small, can't imagine that it weighs 3000 lbs. Will post weight information when I receive it.

Sign me up! Where is it available from?

[KarenRei]

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/22252304/sn/1715355958/name/triac_at_home.jpg

It is so small, can't imagine that it weighs 3000 lbs. Will post weight information when I receive it.

Is that a muffler at the back?

[shotgunslade]

Nope. It's just a weird cut-out in the rear wheel fender.

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/22252304/sn/1571878161/name/on_there_way_3.jpg

[shotgunslade]

The website is here:

http://www.greenvehicles.com/

The reservation desposit requires a lot of faith. I don't have that much faith yet.

A 10% reservation fee will be required before you are entered into the queue.

Your reservation fee is 100% refundable upon written demand until you are contacted by GV and select your specific options and vehicle color. At such time you will be required to increase your reservation fee to 50% of the purchase price of the vehicle. The remaining 50% of the purchase price will be payable prior to delivery of the vehicle.

[G-Jet]

Is it me or does the image showing all the vehicles from behind look like it was taken in China????

G

[NeilBlanchard]

I'd be a little concerned about stability and resistance to rollover. The narrow front track comes at a price -- and unless the Cg (center of gravity) is pretty darn low, this vehicle may be prone to rollover. The top of the roof seems to be taller than a 2e (the later ones anyway) and the wheelbase is shorter, too.

The way to have a stable 3 wheel vehicle: from the Cg point, imagine a 45 degree cone projecting down to the ground -- it makes a circle. That circle must stay completely inside the triangle between the centers of the three tire contact patches. And better results have the circle as close to the two front tires as possible.

[shotgunslade]

i believe the Triac is manufactured in China

[G-Jet]

Manufactured in China? what gave it away...? yup.

G

[lapwing]

I'll second Neil's concerns regarding stability. This is a trike to avoid. Unless you use a http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/quazen/2008/06/20/188177_2.jpg or Zen three wheeler as your measure. This is not a vehicle to encourage.

[shotgunslade]

I am not impressed by any of the electric tricycles, because the greatest potential acceleration with yaw is going to be braking or unintended stopping (like hitting something). Standard tricycles are very likely to tip or roll in this scenario. Reverse trikes, on the other hand, are are almost as stable as a 4 wheel vehicle under deceleration with yaw.

[earther]

i believe the Triac is manufactured in China
I happened to see a Triac in a mechanic's shop in Gilroy the other day. I was surprised to physically see one, but according to the person I talked to (an engineer for Green Vehicles named Mike) he said there were a dozen or so on the streets being tested by customers. And unless I misunderstood him, I believe he indicated that the Triacs were being manufactured here in CA (I think he said their main shop was in Salinas, but was in the process of moving to a bigger location).

[PatQ562]

The two pictures of the "fleet" do indeed look very much like China. Good catch. The pavement, the buildings, the fencing, the flags, the air quality all suggest this. The side view with the test driver is obviously in front of a California home.

So I would view "made in California" with much skepticism. Re-assembled after shipping, maybe. Not that I really care - there are some good Chinese companies, although the US partner must exert close supervision especially during design and testing. Realistically, many of the components, if not the whole car, will be manufactured there if you want decent pricing. And the Chinese gov't has an electric car initiative.

Pat Q

[PatQ562]

They've delivered at least one "early adopter" vehicle.
http://mytriacrocks.blogspot.com/

The test driver's blog reports on 1-3-10 that he achieved 102 miles of range, going back and forth on a 5-mile stretch, at 45-50 mph, with a few mild grades, with 13% left on the battery gauge. He had previously reported 10-12 hours recharge time on 50 mile trips, and doesn't say what the recharge time was for this. Assuming the charger is normally efficient and draws the legal limit at 120V, this suggests a 22kWhr battery. THIS suggests a wall-to-wheel efficiency about half that of Aptera's goals, but honestly, only a handful of EV's have actually achieved over 100 miles range in the hands of regular users.

Despite its narrow tippy wheelbase and obvious Chinese origin, if this comes from a company that's been around for a while, this platform may actually have far more actual road time on it (probably in gas powered form) than Myers, Evaro, or Aptera (sigh). Even if the platform is new, it probably comes from a company that at least makes cabin scooters or the other even tippier looking 3-wheelers on greenvehicle's web site.

For some reason, my interest level stops a little short of considering this as an alternative to Aptera (it doesn't really look safe on the freeway), but for those seeking a decent EV at moderate speeds, this may actually be the best alternative, and the best value.

Pat Q

[Dolphyn]

The side view with the test driver is obviously in front of a California home.I doubt it, since he lives near Bellevue, WA.
:jumping0001:

[evmavin]

Any three wheeled vehicle made in China that is not approved by the DOT for importation is going to be a risky purchase. I can tell you they are targeting these MFGs and attempting to shut some down as the vehicles are very unsafe. Many of these vehicles are being brought in under "off road" status and then being registered in not-so-legit ways, this includes vehicles that have been sold by "dealers" with legit registration issued under questionable tactics. The stuff from China is junk and should be approached with caution. There are containers of these being held at docks and one of the key reasons they get through is a result of 911 priority inspection on containers.

I would not expect the Triac to have a long market lifespan and most likely end up being a vehicle that will have no support in the end and have many service issues.

[PatQ562]

Even assuming all is as advertised, I'm not particularly inspired by the Triac overall, but others keep touting Myers as a "real" supplier because they've actually produced 400-or-so EVs over the last ten years. If GreenVehicles has chosen even a B-list Chinese sub-car producer as their supplier, you are looking at a company that has built many tens of thousands of vehicles, has a big factory with heavy equipment, lots of infrastructure, hordes of workers, and an experienced supply base, who have watched their cars perform (and break down) for many years, has done SOMETHING to protect their reputation, and basically knows a lot more about what they're doing than any of the US providers we have been following. Sure, by our standards, their vehicles are "junk" but think about this coldheartedly for a moment: is there ANY WAY that Myers, or Evaro, or Aptera comes within even 1% of having their experience and capabilities?

So if we're doubtful about the utility, safety and reliability of the Chinese product, what does this say about the start-up products?

The only answer of course, is "hope" that one of them will produce a more ambitious and desirable product. Of the three I've mentioned, only Aptera seems to stand out on this axis. Realistically, the Evaro, and Duo especially, are 5-10 years behind Triac in design sophistication, let alone production experience.

Meanwhile Randy Bopp, tester, notes in today's update that his Triac takes 20 hours to fully recharge at 120V, and about 5 hours at 220V. Both these numbers point to about 22-25kWhr battery, a respectable size, but getting 100+ range at only 45-50 mph implies at least twice the drag as Aptera's goal. However this performance is similar to Duo's claims, and may be better than more mainstream cars such as the Leaf or MiEV that claim 70 mile range on a similar battery pack. So I have to say, if this class of car meets your needs, the Triac probably has more potential for decent service if used with care, than Duo or other startups. And they actually appear to be running beta test vehicles in some small quantity. AND their price looks the best. On the other hand, their high deposit requirements and scary reports of delays and non-delivery suggest shaky finances, which need to settle out. But if they reach the point of selling cars off the lot, they may actually have something.

I find my own attitude interesting. Despite my attempt at a reasonably objective evaluation, I'm just not that interested in even a Triac, let alone the other contenders. I think it's because I had an EV1 and this vehicle would be a step down. I'd happily tool around the block in one, but Aptera still represents "the next step" in my mind.

Regarding licensing - if a company can't figure out how to import and register these 3-wheel "non cars", how do we expect Duo, Evaro and Aptera to do so? Trying to import a FOUR-wheel car flies right in the teeth of EPA and DOT, but isn't the less regulated "motorcycle" class the whole reason for 3-wheels?

Pat Q

[NeilBlanchard]

Does the Triac have an AC motor, or does it use a DC motor? Is it rear wheel drive, or front wheel drive?

[shotgunslade]

20 kW AC PMSM water-cooled electric motor, operating at 144v. There is mention of an option for a 30 kW motor operating at 288v for $3800 more, but I don't think one has been delivered. It supposedly does have regen braking, but Randy Bopp says it doesn't do very much, because the charge controller limits the inrush to the batteries to protect them. So, it is a technology step above the Duo.

It is an ugly car, the front looks exactly like one of the anonymous micro delivery vans you see all over urban China.

[NeilBlanchard]

Maybe having a large capacitor (or ultra-capacitor) would be the ticket to increase the ability to absorb more energy from regenerative braking? This can then be used to charge the battery at a rate that it can take. Similar to this serial hybrid QED Mini Cooper:http://www.gizmag.com/go/6104/

[lapwing]

Maybe having a large capacitor (or ultra-capacitor) would be the ticket to increase the ability to absorb more energy from regenerative braking? This can then be used to charge the battery at a rate that it can take. Similar to this serial hybrid QED Mini Cooper:http://www.gizmag.com/go/6104/

Here is a video worth the time watching, as it discusses the use of a supercapacitor in an EV.

Conclusions are that even at perhaps 1/100th of the Whr rating of the battery pack there is a huge amout to be gained in reduced electro-chemical stress on the batteries, and hence cycle life.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCArK17Hu1M

It's a time and distance thing. You only need a small capacitor, to suck up the regen of stop/start, and give it back, to very easily reduce the cycling of current in and out of the battery.

Look up split-pi conntrolers on wikkipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-pi

The volts in/volts out ratio of this controller, is good and could be better, making the circuit a good candidate for a separate computer controlled supercapacitor "buffer" "boost" subsystem, running separately but in conjunction with the battery pack. This is not the configuration most people think of - that is a supercapacitor of similar voltage to the pack and connected in parallel. (think metric mind (http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/ultracaps.htm) - Honda ultracaps)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqbXPkpsN5A

[evmavin]

Even assuming all is as advertised, I'm not particularly inspired by the Triac overall, but others keep touting Myers as a "real" supplier because they've actually produced 400-or-so EVs over the last ten years. If GreenVehicles has chosen even a B-list Chinese sub-car producer as their supplier, you are looking at a company that has built many tens of thousands of vehicles, has a big factory with heavy equipment, lots of infrastructure, hordes of workers, and an experienced supply base, who have watched their cars perform (and break down) for many years, has done SOMETHING to protect their reputation, and basically knows a lot more about what they're doing than any of the US providers we have been following. Sure, by our standards, their vehicles are "junk" but think about this coldheartedly for a moment: is there ANY WAY that Myers, or Evaro, or Aptera comes within even 1% of having their experience and capabilities?

So if we're doubtful about the utility, safety and reliability of the Chinese product, what does this say about the start-up products?

The only answer of course, is "hope" that one of them will produce a more ambitious and desirable product. Of the three I've mentioned, only Aptera seems to stand out on this axis. Realistically, the Evaro, and Duo especially, are 5-10 years behind Triac in design sophistication, let alone production experience.

Meanwhile Randy Bopp, tester, notes in today's update that his Triac takes 20 hours to fully recharge at 120V, and about 5 hours at 220V. Both these numbers point to about 22-25kWhr battery, a respectable size, but getting 100+ range at only 45-50 mph implies at least twice the drag as Aptera's goal. However this performance is similar to Duo's claims, and may be better than more mainstream cars such as the Leaf or MiEV that claim 70 mile range on a similar battery pack. So I have to say, if this class of car meets your needs, the Triac probably has more potential for decent service if used with care, than Duo or other startups. And they actually appear to be running beta test vehicles in some small quantity. AND their price looks the best. On the other hand, their high deposit requirements and scary reports of delays and non-delivery suggest shaky finances, which need to settle out. But if they reach the point of selling cars off the lot, they may actually have something.

I find my own attitude interesting. Despite my attempt at a reasonably objective evaluation, I'm just not that interested in even a Triac, let alone the other contenders. I think it's because I had an EV1 and this vehicle would be a step down. I'd happily tool around the block in one, but Aptera still represents "the next step" in my mind.

Regarding licensing - if a company can't figure out how to import and register these 3-wheel "non cars", how do we expect Duo, Evaro and Aptera to do so? Trying to import a FOUR-wheel car flies right in the teeth of EPA and DOT, but isn't the less regulated "motorcycle" class the whole reason for 3-wheels?

Pat Q



Hi Pat,


I've been in agreement with 95% of your forum comments thus far but I need to respectfully disagree on some points here. First let's look at the Chinese three-wheeled vehicles:

The first issue here can be illustrated from a company like Zap and the three wheeled vehicles they have sold for years which have been manufactured in China for many years as utility vehicles and inexpensive transport. The reason these vehicles are showing up in the US is because they are low cost, low weight and exempt from crash testing and safely standards. These vehicles are inexpensive as they were made for a target market and price point and tend to be poorly constructed as a result of cost reduction not manufacturing capability. The Zap vehicle is very poorly made and unsafe like many other vehicles produced to service the Chinese market, they are attractive as EV conversions and the chinese saw this opportunity. As time passed and the sales were poor in the US, the chinese attempted to slightly improve these vehicles to gain higher speed and a bit more interest but to make them affordable as EVs they still had to be made at a quality compromise. No matter how much manufacturing experience, capital equipment and technology a company has, if they have a poor design and cut corners and use poor quality components to reduce cost the end result will suffer.


Myers-

Now let's look at Myers Motors. Myers really has little "manufacturing" experience since they did not design and manufacture the NMG but bought the remaining shells from Corbin and assembled the parts and made some parts improvements along the way. They have limited experience in making a vehicle from scratch. To their benefit, I would say that many of the components in an NMG are very high quality compared to the junk in the chinese EVs, the Chinese could not even duplicate the Zilla controller and copying is what they do best. Putting safely aside I would still guess that the Duo will be made better than most of the Chinese three wheelers on the market today. Don't think for a second the Chinese are very concerned about their reputation for these cheap vehicles, their market is China and the ones sold in the US are usually not sold as OEM vehicles at his point and are branded under different names. Many "dealers" have been burned and only now are the chinese MFG even starting to respond to this, slowly. These are "suppliers" of commodities to multiple buyers at his point, not brand name sellers in the US with high stakes on a reputation. There are many factors in this equation that will need to change drastically before we see affordable and reliable EVs from China. Just look at all the Smart Car knock-off EVs that were sold on ebay under different names and then vanished.

Importation-

There are two separate issues here. First, as we know three-wheelers are exempt from crash testing regardless of the origin. Any four-wheeled car made here or elsewhere must have DOT approval and crash testing. There are some chinese EVs with four wheels that are being imported as "off road vehicles" and then being registered in unethical ways to avoid these safety regulations. In addition, many of the three-wheeled imports are just flat out dangerous as a result of under engineered safety systems (ie brakes) and are becoming a large concern of the DOT. This does not seem to be the trend with US builders since the cars are being designed more toward the US driving market and speeds higher than those in Chinese communities. I expect that in time there will be new regulations related to three-wheeled and NEV vehicles as the population grows. This is a challenge for the DOT to regulate as they have little control at the ports over these loopholes as a result of agency cooperation. Sound familiar?. I have had extensive first hand experience in this area and If you know the system you would be shocked at what can get through.


US made three-wheelers

The challenge here is producing a vehicle design that is affordable and safe. Due to low production and low capital equipment investment many the three-wheelers here are made of tube/box steel frames and weak fiberglass shells. To make this design safe a proper high-stength full cage is required which can ruin the design "look" and add much weight and cost. The unibody design lends itself more to the four wheel car and this is why the Aptera design is more of a potential winner in this category despite the "company" issues. If you can make a fiberglass mold and weld you can build an efficient EV but making it even somewhat safe is a challenge, this is the advantage the big auto makers have and a barrier to competition that has existed due to economies of scale. Just look at the side impact area near the Evaro at the passenger position.

I don't see the Evaro or Triac going far at all in their present state and the Myers product is too expensive at $35K for 100 mile range which is the real cost after the temporary discount. Even at $25K the composition of this vehicle makes it very expensive and we have not even discussed the level of safety yet. Sure some people will pay these prices and don't care if the vehicle has risks and a very poor resale value but that is not a decent share of the market, look at the reservation numbers. In addition any new EV releases from companies like Toyota and Nissan will squeeze the value of these companies products way down.

Kit Cars-

When batteries and AC components are produced in volume there will be a huge business for specific conversions and kits for classic cars since many of these are very efficient platforms and are easy to design as EVs. I see this a a huge DIY market that is exempt from crash testing and smog certificates!

Time will tell and at this point the only real contender in the three wheel market I see as having a viable product offering is Aptera yet they seemed to destroy the best product to come to this space if not our time, sadly. If Myers can sell their car at $15-17K with 60 miles range, I would invest in the company tomorrow.

[speculawyer]

Does the Triac have an AC motor, or does it use a DC motor? Is it rear wheel drive, or front wheel drive?
AC motor. Rear wheel drive.

[shotgunslade]

According to Randy Bopp, it is front wheel drive. If you look closely at the side photos, there is no evidence of a drive shaft or drive chain or belt to the rear wheels.

[PatQ562]

I actually agree with EVMaven's "respectfully disagree" remarks. My provisional endorsement of Triac was premised on the ASSUMPTION or POSSIBILITY that GreenVehicles selected a "decent" Chinese partner. It was intended as a thought exercise to show the difficulties of doing a really good vehicle. The Chinese 3-wheelers are indeed intended for 45mph-class service (if that). The main point is that construction, brakes, suspension, and steering of Myers and probably Evaro are unlikely to be any better, if not worse due to lack of lifetime testing. If this is "good enough" for someone, then they should at least consider the Triac as well, if GreenVehicles becomes financially stable and are able to back the product.

Although Aptera remains vaporware at this time, at least they they are TARGETING their performance towards a serious freeway safe vehicle.

Pat Q

[NmGfan]

The main point is that construction, brakes, suspension, and steering of Myers and probably Evaro are unlikely to be any better, if not worse due to lack of lifetime testing.

Pat,
The disk brakes on the Myers vehicles are off-the-shelf Wilwood rotor/caliper system for small performance vehicles (Miata size). The front suspension is a lower control arm with off-the-shelf adjustable coil over shocks and an upper A arm and a 1" sway bar; stuff used by thousands of performance vehicle enthusiasts every day. The rear mono-lever swing arm uses a high performance motorcycle rear coil over shock with fluid reservoir and damping control. The steering system is also off-the-shelf Flaming River rack and pinion (2.5 turns lock to lock) and tilt steering wheel system. So most of the components are widely available performance parts that are used everyday in the demanding world of high performance racing vehicles. All have been durability and reliability tested for years, if not decades, in very tough real world situations. None of the components are unique to the Myers vehicles except for the custom rear swing arm and maybe the front sway bar.
I would not be any more concerned about the quality of the components in either of Myers vehicles as they are sourced the same way that Aptera components will be sourced, from existing OEM component suppliers that have done the life testing and sold thousands to millions of units to the user community; the Chinese built vehicles clearly will not be.
:happy0025:

[NeilBlanchard]

Here is a video worth the time watching, as it discusses the use of a supercapacitor in an EV.

Conclusions are that even at perhaps 1/100th of the Whr rating of the battery pack there is a huge amout to be gained in reduced electro-chemical stress on the batteries, and hence cycle life.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCArK17Hu1M

It's a time and distance thing. You only need a small capacitor, to suck up the regen of stop/start, and give it back, to very easily reduce the cycling of current in and out of the battery.

Look up split-pi conntrolers on wikkipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-pi

The volts in/volts out ratio of this controller, is good and could be better, making the circuit a good candidate for a separate computer controlled supercapacitor "buffer" "boost" subsystem, running separately but in conjunction with the battery pack. This is not the configuration most people think of - that is a supercapacitor of similar voltage to the pack and connected in parallel. (think metric mind (http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/ultracaps.htm) - Honda ultracaps)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqbXPkpsN5A

Thank you for this post -- I'm watching the Ilah Nourakhsh lecture video at Carnegie Mellon, and it is fantastic.

If you are interested even just a little bit in EV's, then I hope you watch this video!

[evmavin]

Pat,
The disk brakes on the Myers vehicles are off-the-shelf Wilwood rotor/caliper system for small performance vehicles (Miata size). The front suspension is a lower control arm with off-the-shelf adjustable coil over shocks and an upper A arm and a 1" sway bar; stuff used by thousands of performance vehicle enthusiasts every day. The rear mono-lever swing arm uses a high performance motorcycle rear coil over shock with fluid reservoir and damping control. The steering system is also off-the-shelf Flaming River rack and pinion (2.5 turns lock to lock) and tilt steering wheel system. So most of the components are widely available performance parts that are used everyday in the demanding world of high performance racing vehicles. All have been durability and reliability tested for years, if not decades, in very tough real world situations. None of the components are unique to the Myers vehicles except for the custom rear swing arm and maybe the front sway bar.
I would not be any more concerned about the quality of the components in either of Myers vehicles as they are sourced the same way that Aptera components will be sourced, from existing OEM component suppliers that have done the life testing and sold thousands to millions of units to the user community; the Chinese built vehicles clearly will not be.
:happy0025:


This is true and almost all the Chinese junk is built at the lowest possible cost to where it will hold together just enough to go down the street. It seems as though Aptera may be using their own parts as their geometry is a bit unique for the front end suspension parts, the steering, brakes and other bits are most likely modified from other vehicles.

[shotgunslade]

There are an enormous number of suspension, brake and other components out there, that are tested every week by the legion of amatuer motorsportsmen in this country. I had Wilwood brakes on my track-day roadster. All components for its independent front and rear suspension were standard parts available from Summit Racing. There is a lot of denigration of "kit cars" in this forum, but kit cars like the Rossion, the Ultima, and even my former WCM Ultralite provide performance comparable to European exotics costing more than 5 times as much. Look at a reverse trike like the Campagna T-Rex, from Canada, that is essentially a custom tube frame with full cage, aftermarket susepnsion, brake, steering, etc. parts and a drive train from a Japanese superbike. It has achieved 1.3G's on a skidpad, better than any conventionally manufactured car in the world. You can buy a new one for $50k.

So, you can assemble a major high-performance automobile for a surprisingly low figure, using the many available components already in the market. The secret is figuring out how to make best use of this resource. That way you don't have waste engineering time on problems that have already been solved. Sounds like Myers is already doing that. I bet FVT is doing the same thing

[PatQ562]

In assessing build quality, we're kind of talking about two separate things. I recognize the existence of an active community of suppliers of enthusiast parts, whose performance can be easily validated by actual racing, as noted. So I don't doubt that a high-performing chassis can be assembled using "kit parts". It's durability I am talking about. Most kit cars, race-prepared street cars, or dune buggies, live a hard but short life, as measured in miles. Nobody really knows how they will perform for say 10 years or 100,000 miles of normal, daily driving.

For what its worth, my auto-crossing friend and extremely experienced mechanical designer, who knows who the top brands are, doesn't recognize any of the brand names mentioned, so he can't give his informed opinion, but he sees stuff break or disappoint frequently, so merely being in the enthusiast market is no guarantee of reliability. There are good parts and bad parts. Many of these aftermarket parts are also made in China. World-class companies are constantly teaching Chinese companies how to make their parts to world-class standards, so made-in-China is no longer an automatic condemnation. "Designed in China" may still be less-than-world-class.

So yes, "legions of motorsports drivers" may be validating the performance of aftermarket parts, but not so much the durability. Everyone I know who modifies their cars or trucks has problems sooner or later.

There are a few world-class shops, the leading brands, who perform serious lifetime testing, using for example machines that cycle suspension parts for the equivalent of 10 years of service. These companies KNOW what their parts will do. There are many other shops (including most Chinese) who inspect the "real" parts, and duplicate them as best as they can. Some are merely trying to save money, others may be enhancing some particular attribute to meet enthusiast demands. But there's a lot hidden in a part such as exact material composition, heat treating, etc that can't be determined or copied by inspection. If you can't afford the serious torture-testing, you can only gain this experience by watching field results and making adjustments. This takes many years. I do recognize that some aftermarket suppliers have such experience; so do some Chinese producers. It's a very vague generalization, but until I find out more, somehow, I would have no reason to believe that an average aftermarket supplier is going to be any better than an average, modern Chinese supplier. It all depends on the actual supplier.

If relying on field testing, the number of units matters. If any one part fails on a car, you have a problem. Therefore, the number of CARS produced is far more important to me than the number of COMPONENTS the supplier has produced. A good component could fail if poorly applied in the car. Average lower-cost components could give good service if well-applied, using the results of early mistakes to eliminate unnecessary stress and uprating parts to correct for overloads. This is why I would place far more reliance on a mass producer of even low-class vehicles, over a small quantity producer, even with nominally better components. I would at least have some belief that the mass-produced vehicle has some degree of underlying integrity, allowing me to "judge the book by its cover" and determine whether it meets my needs by careful inspection and test driving. A small-shop vehicle could look good on the surface but have internal shortcomings simply because they haven't made enough, for long enough, to find the pitfalls.

So I agree, it's an overly broad generalization to condemn "kit car parts" but their use in racing is no guarantee of durability either. Similarly, there are SOME Chinese auto producers making parts, or even whole cars, for world-class brands that know what they're doing. So in the end, I guess "it depends".

Dragging this back to Aptera vs whatever, I have every expectation that my Aptera, should they ever make it, WILL have some teething problems. My patience WILL be tested. So my interest is based on their high design standards. Assuming these qualities are apparent during my test drive, I would want and admire the car enough to make me willing to put up with some problems.

[shotgunslade]

Racing is also about durabilty. An hour on the race track puts more wear and tear on parts as several tens of hours on the road. Brakes and suspension parts, in particular are subjected to stresses and temperatures far beyond anything they might experience in daily driving. A good amateur driver can easily put in 60 to 100 hours of track time on his car in a given season. That is as much wear and tear as many daily driver cars would get in their entire life. The point I am making is that a firm like FVT or Myers can buy their suspension, brake, and steering components out of a catalogue and be sure of getting durable, dependable components that are more than adequate for the rigors of daily driving. Yes, there may be problems, but then again look at the recall rolls of the major manufacturers. Just being big doesn't make them immune to misapplication issues.

I think the issues of the drivetrain, particularly for an EV, are much more problematic for reliabilityand appropriate application than are those of the more standard parts of the car.

[evmavin]

Racing is also about durabilty. An hour on the race track puts more wear and tear on parts as several tens of hours on the road. Brakes and suspension parts, in particular are subjected to stresses and temperatures far beyond anything they might experience in daily driving. A good amateur driver can easily put in 60 to 100 hours of track time on his car in a given season. That is as much wear and tear as many daily driver cars would get in their entire life. The point I am making is that a firm like FVT or Myers can buy their suspension, brake, and steering components out of a catalogue and be sure of getting durable, dependable components that are more than adequate for the rigors of daily driving. Yes, there may be problems, but then again look at the recall rolls of the major manufacturers. Just being big doesn't make them immune to misapplication issues.

I think the issues of the drivetrain, particularly for an EV, are much more problematic for reliabilityand appropriate application than are those of the more standard parts of the car.


EV drivetrains are simple than those of a traditional car. The size of the components also offers quite a bit of design flexibility. I'm not sure what people think there is a reliability issue or problems associated with EVs. No clutch, no CVT, no flywheel, fewer gears, no syncro, no reverse, no shift linkage, etc.

[PatQ562]

For what its worth, and this is partly my greater familiarity with the electronic side of things, there's no reason a competently designed EV motor and controller should give much trouble. The motor is stable, components are available with plenty of voltage margin, and the circuitry can be made self-limiting so it never overloads itself. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's quite possible.

The gear train and axle shafts may be available off the shelf. These are subject to wear, as are the batteries.

The batteries are a bigger question due to the large number of cells, any one of which could leak, dry out or corrode and thus defeat the pack. Some serious purity of material issues here.

Others seem confident that the vital suspension, steering and braking systems can be obtained (at profitable costs?) from reputable suppliers. But what about all the mundane little custom-design parts like pedals, door handles, latches, hinges, glove boxes, window seals, arm rests, adjustable seats, seat belts, controls for lights, turn signals, windshield washer, and all the other little pieces that need to hold up for a long time? This is where the so-called kit cars fall short. The smarter ones just don't HAVE a lot of this stuff (open dune buggies) but we presumably want all-weather, reasonably civilized vehicles, which means a big design team to attend to all this.

Pat Q

[evmavin]

For what its worth, and this is partly my greater familiarity with the electronic side of things, there's no reason a competently designed EV motor and controller should give much trouble. The motor is stable, components are available with plenty of voltage margin, and the circuitry can be made self-limiting so it never overloads itself. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's quite possible.

The gear train and axle shafts may be available off the shelf. These are subject to wear, as are the batteries.

The batteries are a bigger question due to the large number of cells, any one of which could leak, dry out or corrode and thus defeat the pack. Some serious purity of material issues here.

Others seem confident that the vital suspension, steering and braking systems can be obtained (at profitable costs?) from reputable suppliers. But what about all the mundane little custom-design parts like pedals, door handles, latches, hinges, glove boxes, window seals, arm rests, adjustable seats, seat belts, controls for lights, turn signals, windshield washer, and all the other little pieces that need to hold up for a long time? This is where the so-called kit cars fall short. The smarter ones just don't HAVE a lot of this stuff (open dune buggies) but we presumably want all-weather, reasonably civilized vehicles, which means a big design team to attend to all this.

Pat Q


I had a 11 year old EV with a Siemens AC inverter that never had a single issue. Many people forget that making many custom parts is expensive and not all control arms for race cars, etc are going to work with the Aptera geometry and layout, it's oversimplification of bolting on parts. This is fine when you design the frame to work with certain parts but not in a dynamic design.

[NmGfan]

Others seem confident that the vital suspension, steering and braking systems can be obtained (at profitable costs?) from reputable suppliers. But what about all the mundane little custom-design parts like pedals, door handles, latches, hinges, glove boxes, window seals, arm rests, adjustable seats, seat belts, controls for lights, turn signals, windshield washer, and all the other little pieces that need to hold up for a long time? This is where the so-called kit cars fall short. The smarter ones just don't HAVE a lot of this stuff (open dune buggies) but we presumably want all-weather, reasonably civilized vehicles, which means a big design team to attend to all this.

I would suggest you take a quick clandestine look at the advertizers in Popular Hot Rodding, Classic Trucks, Rod & Custom, etc., magazines at the grocery store rack. All the little detail bits and pieces you mention above are widely available from multiple suppliers, including the major American automobile manufacturers. I won't go into all the supplier names, but I think you'll be surprised by the breadth of the offerings. For reference, my NmG has a Corvette (C4 twin square lights) tail light assembly made by General Motors (GM p/n on lens), the outer door handle and latch assembly are made by Ford for the Taurus/Sable (got the Ford Key for entry), the seat is made by Corbin (custom to vehicle), seatbelt by a major supplier to the auto industry, instrumentation by a major aftermarket supplier, electric windows and controls from one of several aftermarket retrofit companies, and so on. Ford, GM, and Chrysler sell "crate motors" with all the latest FI induction and computer control systems across a wide range of displacements for use in just about any project vehicle one can imagine. About all one needs today is time, and money to build a completely custom vehicle from catalogs of components, including bodies (replica or original in steel or fiberglass) and frames.
One thing is pretty certain, only the parts that are truly unique to a given vehicle should be custom made for that application, all the rest can be sourced from existing suppliers at ever better prices as unit volume increases.

:happy0025:

[evmavin]

I would suggest you take a quick clandestine look at the advertizers in Popular Hot Rodding, Classic Trucks, Rod & Custom, etc., magazines at the grocery store rack. All the little detail bits and pieces you mention above are widely available from multiple suppliers, including the major American automobile manufacturers. I won't go into all the supplier names, but I think you'll be surprised by the breadth of the offerings. For reference, my NmG has a Corvette (C4 twin square lights) tail light assembly made by General Motors (GM p/n on lens), the outer door handle and latch assembly are made by Ford for the Taurus/Sable (got the Ford Key for entry), the seat is made by Corbin (custom to vehicle), seatbelt by a major supplier to the auto industry, instrumentation by a major aftermarket supplier, electric windows and controls from one of several aftermarket retrofit companies, and so on. Ford, GM, and Chrysler sell "crate motors" with all the latest FI induction and computer control systems across a wide range of displacements for use in just about any project vehicle one can imagine. About all one needs today is time, and money to build a completely custom vehicle from catalogs of components, including bodies (replica or original in steel or fiberglass) and frames.
One thing is pretty certain, only the parts that are truly unique to a given vehicle should be custom made for that application, all the rest can be sourced from existing suppliers at ever better prices as unit volume increases.

:happy0025:


Yes there are millions of parts from thousands of suppliers and these can be fit to many EV designs but not fully custom designs that do not allow their design to follow parts suppliers. Some things can be sourced but what catalog would you think the 2e tail light assembly was ordered from? Sure they bought existing steering, headlights, brakes, etc. And tuning a suspension on a unique design does not mean ordering control arms that work exactly to your specs from a catalog, much simpler for a traditional car chassis design but not some of these custom configurations. These parts can be made for prototypes and then produced to spec at a reasonable cost but. The NMG front end is a simple design that can use basic sourced parts, that's why they did it that way. The catalog approach can apply to many of these-three wheeled EVs like the Evaro and Triac perhaps but not all, its not a hard and fast rule.

[NmGfan]

Agreed. My NmG references aren't meant as "the way it should be done", but as examples of quality components that can be purchased off-the-shelf from various suppliers 'catalogs'.
As I said,only the parts that are truly unique to a given vehicle should be custom made for that application That would apply to the taillight example for the Aptera.
Really what I'm talking about is that Aptera for example, will custom make all the truly unique components for their initial vehicle family, and that includes the front upper and lower control arms, front and rear sub-frames, rear swing arm (or whatever they choose to use), as well as the obvious body and lighting components which they have custom designed. But things like shock absorbers, springs, FWD trans axle assembly, brake rotors and calipers, wheels, rack and pinion steering assembly, steering column assembly, seats (covered to their specs), air conditioner components (compressor/evaporator/controls), cruise control, traction motor/controller/inverter, batteries, pedal assemblies for the driver, etcetera ad nauseum... will be purchased items from existing suppliers.
:happy0025:

[evmavin]

Agreed. My NmG references aren't meant as "the way it should be done", but as examples of quality components that can be purchased off-the-shelf from various suppliers 'catalogs'.
As I said, That would apply to the taillight example for the Aptera.
Really what I'm talking about is that Aptera for example, will custom make all the truly unique components for their initial vehicle family, and that includes the front upper and lower control arms, front and rear sub-frames, rear swing arm (or whatever they choose to use), as well as the obvious body and lighting components which they have custom designed. But things like shock absorbers, springs, FWD trans axle assembly, brake rotors and calipers, wheels, rack and pinion steering assembly, steering column assembly, seats (covered to their specs), air conditioner components (compressor/evaporator/controls), cruise control, traction motor/controller/inverter, batteries, pedal assemblies for the driver, etcetera ad nauseum... will be purchased items from existing suppliers.
:happy0025:


Yes.......

[shotgunslade]

Information on the Triac

Outside
Length:125 inches
Width of body (not including mirrors): 55 inches
Height: 62 inches
Clearance under Triac: 6 inches
Tire Size: 195/50 R15

Inside
Width: 46 ½ inches
Height: 45 inches
Seat to ceiling: 35 ½ inches
Back of seat to steering wheel: 23 inches

Weight: 2280 lbs
Battery Weight: 750 lbs.

[evmavin]

The first two comments are for the most part accurate. Are people so desperate for EVs that they will pay over $7-9k for this junk?

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/01/13/detroit-2010-green-vehicles-presents-electric-avenue-with-upgra/


Triac, good marketing, crap product. Aptera great product, crap marketing. Staggering lesson here.